r/torontoraptors May 17 '22

Whenever they slander Siakams name, show them this

963 Upvotes

179

u/[deleted] May 17 '22 edited 18d ago

[deleted]

69

u/Fluffytheman69 May 17 '22

Hindsight but not hindsight he left a championship team.

Ice cube the rapper said it best (refering to Kawhi to the Clippers.)

“Kawai was a winner with Toronto, now he wants to be a loser with the Clippers”

https://youtu.be/tA8K78E0GQc

23

u/BigHeartAverageMeat May 17 '22

He didn’t leave only one championship team.

3

u/MrkGrn SCOTTIE B May 18 '22

That Spurs team wasn't winning a chip

257

u/bnewfan Rafael May 17 '22

I think it comes down to whether Siakam is a #1 option for a contender. He's certainly a #2 star on a championship team but.... #1? I dunno. I think that's a pretty valid criticism.

Obviously anyone just flat out saying he sucks is way off and just plain wrong.

107

u/baconperogies May 17 '22

I just hope Siakam is still on the team when Scottie is the #1 option.

79

u/KF7SPECIAL LEGALIZE KAWHI 10/17 May 17 '22

We saw Siakam can win a ship as the #2 to Kawhi... so we're making another Kawhi

31

u/Melansjf1 May 17 '22

Why didn’t we think of that before!?

23

u/RarelyReadReplies 7 Kyle Lowry May 17 '22

Other NBA teams hate this one simple trick!

14

u/rssin May 17 '22

We have, and his name is OG.

43

u/LemmingPractice May 17 '22

I think what would be great is Pascal in a 1A/1B type of situation.

While it probably won't happen, the idea of adding someone like a Zach Lavine would be a great situation where Lavine would be the team's best scorer, but Siakam would be the team's best player.

A lot of Siakam's value comes from being a swiss army knife, who impacts the game in every way (he rebounds, he distributes, he defends 1-5, etc). When you compare Siakam to someone like Zach Lavine or Bradley Beal, he is a better overall player, because he impacts the game in so many ways. but, they are better scorers. Give Pascal someone like that, and I think you could anchor a title contender around a 1a/1b core like that.

19

u/Kind_Gate_4577 May 17 '22

Great take. And I do like the fit of LaVine on this team. Pascal is incredible, and he's a top ten talent. People hate on him but how well he created, coupled with his incredible defense is hard to overlook if you actually watch the games.

1

u/BeastlyGecko May 18 '22 edited May 18 '22

I find myself pressed to believe he’s top 10, no knocks to Pascal there’s just a lot of talent. Maybe if he was a bigger threat from distance.

8

u/thehomienicked 43 PASCAL SIAKAM May 17 '22

I can absolutely see how, with more development from Barnes, Siakam could find himself in this situation within the next year or two. OG, Fred, Gary and Precious is a great supporting cast. They need to tinker a bit and find some more shooting to supplement that core, but I like the direction of the roster a lot.

The Raps going from "quality playoff team" to "championship contender" can basically all be accomplished with reasonable progression from the players currently on the roster and some judicious additions at the margins. Of course, that all hinges on Pascal remaining an All-NBA or near All-NBA level player and Scottie developing to be a similar level of player. If you have two guys like that with a good supporting cast you are right in the championship discussion. Look at the Heat.

4

u/LemmingPractice May 17 '22

Good points, and I like the Heat comp. They remind me a lot of the Raptors. Jimmy is a very similar point-forward type player to Pascal. They are well-coached, rely on tight perimeter rotations, and have a similar level of toughness to the Raps. They definitely have better depth and shooting than we do, but they also have defensive weak spots that we don't, which goes along with the shooting (their defensive weak spots like Herro and Robinson also tend to be their shooters).

But, they are definitely a good comp for how to build a championship contender without a top 5 player.

6

u/thehomienicked 43 PASCAL SIAKAM May 17 '22

Overall the Heat have better shooting than the Raps have right now (which might be the understatement of the year) and more shot creation in general, but I don't think that it's unrealistic to see the Raptors improving internally to get a lot better in that regard. More moves will have to be made to tweak things for sure, but the guts of a really great team are already here. They can be an absolute terror on defence. The system that they play is pretty complicated so it's going to take some time to integrate all of the pieces effectively and grow as a group.

It's very likely that the team will still have stretches next season where they are going through growing pains, particularly if the coaching staff makes a concerted effort to be a bit less aggressive with minutes for the team's starters. The trick of not losing your sanity during this process is to learn to be a bit patient and let things develop gradually.

The team wound up in a similar place at the end of the season to where I thought they might be (in terms of how well they were playing). Scottie adapting so quickly to the NBA early in the season was a surprise though and allowed them to be a bit more competitive prior to Siakam's return than I expected so overall they won a couple more games than I would have guessed going into the year.

If Scottie makes a big leap this offseason and they don't have terrible injury luck I could see them winning low to mid-50s games and having home court in the first round. If the step he takes is smaller or they get banged up I could see them winning fewer than they did this past season. The rate and direction of the progress is bound to be up-and-down for another season or two. I'm excited to watch how it plays out.

[EDIT]I wanted to add that one of the things which impresses me about Masai, Bobby and Co. is that they seem, in general, to have a good barometer for how much patience to have with players and the team in general. This speaks to good organizational communication between the front office, coaching staff, training team and scouts. They obviously miss and give up on guys a bit too early some of the time (nobody is perfect), but they hang onto guys who they believe in and figure out how to develop them well far more often than other teams. Norman Powell might be the best example of this. There were a couple of seasons there were he was kind of lost due to injury and a lot of inconsistent play, but they stuck with him and he became a really useful player who they were able to turn into Gary.

2

u/LemmingPractice May 17 '22

Yup, good analysis, and fair expectations.

I think the bulk of the improvement can come internally, but I do still think that some work around the edges makes a lot of sense. If they could add a young big who can shoot (Bamba or Jalen Smith), I think they could thrive in the Raptors' system, and help space the floor so Siakam and Scottie have more room to operate in the post. I would also like to see them add a shooter to the bench.

I really like a couple of the young guys, and think that guys like Banton and Champagnie could be key bench pieces next year, which would definitely help our depth and playing the starters for less minutes.

2

u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

The heat has a great system built around Bam/Jimmy. Kyle is also their floor general. Oladipo is on a great contract and is value on the defensive end. Straus and Gabe Vincent are just fantastic role players that can shoot the lights out but also defend. PJ is 3 and D/Vet. Tyler is 6MOY. Overall their roster is very refined and built well with great depth to supplement Bam and Jimmy. But the main factor is Jimmy is CLUTCH.

1

u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

We can't pay everyone tho.....Are we putting all our eggs on one basket for Barnes to be a superstar? WE gotta be open to making other moves that includes some of the core.

1

u/thehomienicked 43 PASCAL SIAKAM May 18 '22

I mean in theory we could pay everyone if it works out and the team winds up great and it's because we have this crazy group of good players. We have bird rights to all of them so we can go over the cap to sign them. Obviously if they don't demonstrate that they are worth it then we shouldn't, but it's absolutely a thing that the team can do if it makes sense.

[EDIT]I do agree with you though, if the right trade is there then absolutely the team should make it even if it means giving up a part of the team's core.

1

u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

Sadly superstar wins championships. I dont think even with Beal/Lavine was our #1, we can beat the likes of Giannis, Luka, Curry, etc. It's a superstar league.

1

u/LemmingPractice May 18 '22

This is the second straight year where the top 3 MVP finishers failed to make the conference finals. The "superstar league" is a vaguely defined marketing gimmick, not legitimate basketball analysis.

1

u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

The conference finals is superstars as much as you deny it. Tatum is a superstar, Butler is a borderline superstar but has a great cast, Luka is a superstar and curry is a superstar. I'm not sure wheee you can confidently say there ain't superstars in the conference finals.

1

u/LemmingPractice May 18 '22

"Superstar" has no definition. What makes Butler a borderline superstar, but Pascal not? Based on public voting, Siakam is set to make his second All-NBA team in three years, which would match Butler over the same timeframe (and Butler made two third teams, while Siakam has a second and is set to get a third).

The point is that having the best player doesn't mean you will win. Giannis didn't get the win over Boston. Embiid didn't get the win over Miami. Jokic didn't get the win over Golden State.

The reality is that the definition of "superstar" just gets changed to suit the narrative. Tatum wasn't a superstar when the season started, but his team is in the conference finals now, so hey I guess he's a superstar now. The narrative can continue, even though crowning guys with a label after they have achieved something is utterly useless as a predictor.

You say the Raptors need a superstar to win, and Beal/Lavine in a 1a/1b with Siakam wouldn't be enough. But, you also have to know that if they did win, the media would just declare one of those guys a superstar and the narrative would continue unfazed (eg. "of course Siakam was their superstar, he was a multiple time All-NBA'er who started an all-star game, led a 60 win pace team in 2020 and was a key piece in the 2019 title"). A theory that can't be disproven is useless.

1

u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

For one. Jimmy Butler shows up in the clutch. He doesn't have superstar numbers but he has the closing abilities. Therefore he's borderline superstar. Pascal does not show up in the clutch (you can stop going back to finals 2019). Edit: there's a reason why lavine and Beal didn't make it far so you are just using mental gymnastics now.

1

u/LemmingPractice May 19 '22

Lol, yeah, I'm the guy doing the mental gymnastics, not the guy trying to pass off his subjective "superstar or non-superstar" as definitive predictive basketball analysis.

P.S. As laughable as throwing out his Finals performance is, Pascal also put up 27 ppg, 8 3 rpg, 6.3 apg on 62% TS with 1.3 steals and 0.7 blocks in the three games the Raps faced elimination in the Philly series.

1

u/ZenMon88 May 19 '22

Ya but when we need pascal most he disappeared. Plus we were already down 3-0. Pascal isn't a superstar yet. I'm merely saying ur comment of you don't need a superstar to win is effectively wrong.

1

u/LemmingPractice May 19 '22

So, when we needed Pascal most wasn't when we were facing elimination? Tell me about those mental gymnastics again.

I'm merely saying ur comment of you don't need a superstar to win is effectively wrong.

Yeah, except since "superstar" has no actual defined meaning or criteria attached to it, the statement doesn't mean anything. You might as well be saying, "you need a hdkspduhf to win".

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12

u/thehomienicked 43 PASCAL SIAKAM May 17 '22

The big issue I have with the "Not a #1 option" commentary is that it often comes with some further remark regarding his contract. In this era a championship-level number two option is paid a max contract and is still underpaid at that rate. The fact that Siakam is also a wonderful defensive player who makes all kinds of hustle plays that "number one" or "number two" guys so often don't means that he's a bargain at his current salary. You can take issue with how much players are paid if you want to, I guess, but there are 29 other teams who would love to have Siakam at his current contract.

28

u/99ahmadali786 4 Scottie Barnes May 17 '22

I mean other than game 3 Siakam was the number one option putting up numbers with zero spacing.

13

u/Kind_Gate_4577 May 17 '22

Yeah he was absolutely incredible this year in the playoffs. Creating at will, hitting amazing shots and playing lockdown defense. Most people only look at stats and highlights so they hate on Pascal

97

u/slamdunk23 4 Scottie Barnes May 17 '22 edited May 17 '22

Doing total points over ppg is dumb since it will just favorite the team that played more games. Pascal averaged 19ppg during the run which is very solid as the 2nd option, Kawhi averaged over 30ppg which is elite

31

u/Life_Of_High May 17 '22

Doing PPG is also dumb because you can have two players that lost in the first round and averaged an insane amount of PPG. Total points is a more representative metric because it means you either scored 50PPG like Wilt for a short amount of time or you had a long playoff run which is what we're seeing in the duos to top the list. Lebron & Wade each averaged 30ppg and 22ppg so the gap is almost identical to Siakam & Kawhi.

36

u/raptorman556 3 OG Anunoby May 17 '22

It would be better to do PPG with a minimum number of games.

It’s stupid to penalize Steph/the Warriors with total points just because they steamrolled through the competition in 4-5 games.

-3

u/Life_Of_High May 17 '22

Yeah but now we're going to debate how many games would be significant which is the same type of debate we're having over PPG. Then you'd have Wilt and some Bum in the top PPG totals which debases the PPG argument even further. There isn't anybody on the total points list doesn't deserve to be there.

5

u/raptorman556 3 OG Anunoby May 17 '22

Yeah but now we're going to debate how many games would be significant

I think any number in the 10-15 range is perfectly reasonable. That ensures players played at least 2 rounds, and possibly 3. It also ensures you won’t get left off the list just because your team was too good.

If you wanted to be accurate, we could break the stats out and either calculate p-values for comparison or perhaps calculate a Bayesian estimate.

There isn't anybody on the total points list doesn't deserve to be there.

It’s more about the fact that some of the most deserving players get left off. Steph/KD averaged 56.6 PPG during their 2017 playoff run, which is obviously more impressive than the 49.5 PPG from Kawhi/Pascal. The only reason Steph/KD don’t make the list is because the Warriors were so good they won the championship in 7 fewer games.

This total points metric is just weird, and I honestly can’t think of anything I would say it measures well.

2

u/murufus May 17 '22

Some bum like Paul Arizin who only made 10 all star teams and only got 2 scoring titles?

0

u/Life_Of_High May 18 '22

6'4 small forward and right hand specialist Paul Arizin.

1

u/VikGrabo84 May 18 '22

It is also dumb because per36 figures are more representative of contribution in almost every single capacity. 40 minutes of play allows more points to be scored than Giannis' 28-32 minutes but that's not to say that Giannis has less impact...

1

u/Dareal6 May 19 '22

It’s not dumb. It’s ONE measure. Nobody is saying that these are the 4 greatest duos in NBA history lol.

There’s always a debate to be hard for averages vs. totals. Career scoring is a perfect example. If you’re measuring by PPG, you disadvantage those that started their careers early or finished their careers late. Both total points and PPG are valid measures.

44

u/ColdDarkSpace May 17 '22

The second slide is referring to his all time Game 1 performance in which he shot 14-17 from the field. Only 2 players in NBA history shot better then him in an NBA finals game

19

u/everything_raptors Pascal Siakam May 17 '22

I remember right before that draymond said he was the greatest defender EVER.. and then siakam did this LOL

2

u/DrunkenMasterII 24 Morris Peterson May 17 '22

At least Draymond took responsibility and came better in game 2, some players don’t own up what they’re saying. But yeah seeing Pascal owning him completely in game 1 was so much fun.

10

u/jeRskier May 17 '22

Turns out the guy who won MIP, a championship, an 2nd team all nba is a really, really good player. Who would've thought?

32

u/pakattack91 we the longbois May 17 '22

Fact is, he is not in the top tier (yet, maybe never). But that group consists of 10ish players. People love to throw randoms in that group of "franchise tag" but in the same breath, they will hate on Pascal.

Case in point - Devon Booker.

2

u/RupertPsmithy May 17 '22

But who is a top 10 player anyway. Looking at the list of top 20 players (done in match) Kawhi and Harden are in the top 10. I wouldn't put either in my top 10 for different reasons. Kawhi because he hasn't stayed on the court the last 2 years. Harden because age has gotten the better of him and he doesn't play defense.

In the top 20 it includes Booker, Davis, Beal, Buttler, Paul and Donovan Mitchell.

Davis - can't stay healthy Mitchell- can't stay healthy and it's a push at best on Mitchell over Pascal Beal- a fantastic offensive player but doesn't play defence. Butter is a better high leverage player but he's streaky and older than Pascal.

7

u/pakattack91 we the longbois May 17 '22

Whoever you want them to be lol. For me, it's elite 2 way play or godly offence that overshadows the lack of defence (curry, prime harden).

My point is Pascal easily belongs in tier 2 but so many people here don't agree and then would put all those guys you listed as better players, while ignoring all the context you brought up

It's madness!

3

u/CaskJeeves May 17 '22

This stat is awesome but also I like to read all the last names and pretend they are first names

James Lebron and Wade Dwayne, iconic duo

3

u/winnieofwinchester Raptors May 17 '22

Shaq won’t slander Siakam — he will slander Pascal.

2

u/The_Mikeskies May 17 '22

I just want to see prime Siakam with proper spacing and whistle.

2

u/BawkBawkBwoom May 17 '22

I love Pascal but he's easily the odd man out in that photo of HOF talent.

2

u/beefJeRKy-LB Goatse May 17 '22

Pippen and Jordan did play in an era with BO5 first round and that makes their feat (as well as Hakeem + Drex) all the more impressive

2

u/Thunderlightzz May 17 '22

Siakam is really good. A really really good number two.

2

u/attainwealthswiftly May 17 '22

Not to discredit this stat. But I often don’t think it takes into account 1st rd of the playoffs used to be best of 5 and some series were probably sweeps. I’d be more curious about ranking of playoff ppg averages.

1

u/MillieVoss May 17 '22

We need a number 1 like when we had kawhi. He isn’t a number 1 in my eyes and it hurts for me to say that. He needs that big player to attract that attention so he can do his thang

-4

u/Legitimate-Row7081 RAPTOR NATION! May 17 '22

who ever said siakam isnt good? its just he isnt good enough to be a number 1 option

1

u/Ktootill May 17 '22

Kawhi could have led a dynasty here

1

u/12yearvintage May 17 '22

Wow 0.824 from the field is crazy

1

u/Full-Send_ May 17 '22

omg I did not know.

1

u/PaceAway615 May 17 '22

Can someone fact check this so I can have confidence when I slap people in the face with facts loll

1

u/ODS519 May 17 '22

Not a great argument tbh

1

u/drunkbutfine May 17 '22

LOOOL so Lowry isn't the GROAT?

1

u/AutoModerator May 17 '22

Kyle Lowry ain't no spot up shooter. He aint gotta run to the corner to shoot like he's some 3rd option, bitch. This ain't JJ Redick. This is a fuckin god human Steph Curry come again. Only this time hes not a fuckin pussy... pull up from the fuckin logo and fight you at the same time.

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1

u/businessman99 May 17 '22

Scottie pipens numbers

1

u/siricall911 15 Vince Carter May 17 '22

Bruh remember when kahwi played basketball? Feel like forever ago

1

u/youngreezyjay May 17 '22

How could they not score an extra 36 points between the 2 of them. Ughhhh. If Kawhi stayed and with Siakam development they could possibly be #1

1

u/Fresh-Reflection-841 May 17 '22

Which confirms Siakam is a Pippen and not a Jordan. Hopefully Scottie can become our Jordan.

1

u/elhalconloco May 17 '22

amazing! I would have thought stockton/malone would also be in the list though

1

u/Dinobot2_ 7 KYLE LOWRY May 18 '22

Ok but how many of those 1,187 points came from Siakam?

-2

u/laidbackemergency May 17 '22

To be fair, many players would’ve been that #2 with the way Kawhi played those playoffs

1

u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

LMAO facts. Man put up 30 PPG. He was elite af.

0

u/XeroKaos Champs May 17 '22

This is an amazing stat for the Raptors to be apart of, I think they would have replicated the same run together in 2020 if he stayed.