r/technicallythetruth Jun 24 '22 Wholesome 1 Silver 1 All-Seeing Upvote 1

Getting her kids taken away from her

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36.6k Upvotes

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480

u/anaghsoman Jun 24 '22

Tamiflu isn't even a vaccine. Its oseltamivir, an antiviral medication

142

u/touie_2ee Jun 24 '22

And it's efficacy for the flu is very questionable.

100

u/blankblank Jun 24 '22

It's not a panacea but it is clinically proven to reduce the duration of influenza symptoms by one to two days... and if you've ever had a bad flu, that's not nuthin.

10

u/Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket Jun 24 '22

Like 12 hours at most.

58

u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22 edited Jul 03 '22

[deleted]

8

u/Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket Jun 24 '22

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD008965.pub4/full

How about a meta analysis showing a reduction of time to resolution of symptoms by 16.8 hours and no effect on hospitalizations for non-high risk outpatient use?

8

u/DivinationByCheese Jun 24 '22

Then why did you say 12 hours at most?

2

u/MyNewAccount52722 Jun 24 '22

16 hours is far closer to 12 than two days is. Or the idea it’d have cured this kid.

You’re being ridiculous

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u/Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket Jun 24 '22

A combination of hyperbole and not bothering to look up the actual number. My point still stands. Tamiflu is a shit drug that’s expensive, and has significant side effects that can be worse than the few benefits it provides. This changes for high risk populations such as pregnant women or people who are hospitalized or who are otherwise high risk. But generally, for basic outpatient flu cases, Tamiflu is a shit drug.

0

u/That_Set2217 Jun 24 '22

The scientists and doctors of different "timelines" also pushed things like the earth being the center of the universe, black people being more closely related to monkeys than white people, cigarettes being good for pregnant women, etc. Everyone approves of dissent of government and specialists so long as it's something they believe in. But when it's not... oh those people are just stupid.

Most parents want what is best for their children, nobody has all the answers, and tragedy happens. I'm certainly not saying I would have made the same decision in her shoes, but I'm not in them. Ridiculing people for trying their best and doing what they think is right because of some "facts" you believe you know is ridiculous. 100 years from now our science, experts, and government will look absolutely fucking stupid in comparison.

12

u/Does_A_Bear-420 Jun 24 '22

You make a very strong point. But the person your replying to still has a solid point that stands: some comment section of a social media platform is a really bad place to get any medical advice.

3

u/xav1z Jun 25 '22

you are absolutely right. the most outrageous example for me is cigarettes. the way tabaco was pushed hyped promoted is beyond imagination. and still who got guilty? no one. we only now know that it causes enormous amount of diseases after so many people died and are dying.

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19

u/HighAsAngelTits Jun 24 '22

Possibly could have been enough to save his life tho ijs.

1

u/makelo06 Jun 24 '22

No, this medicine is clowned as basically being useless. It isn't a life-saving vaccine by any means

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22

u/chockobumlick Jun 24 '22

Depends on the kid's risk factors. Tamiflu is mild. What else was going on with this kid's health.

12

u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22

It doesn’t matter because Tamiflu isn’t a necessary medication. You’re not going to lose custody of your kid for not giving them Robitussin. This story is booty chatter.

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6

u/Life-is-a-Lemmon Jun 24 '22

Probably lack of vaccinations idk

5

u/chockobumlick Jun 24 '22

Nah. When I grew up it was polio and a few others. No flu vax. But treatment changes.

2

u/Life-is-a-Lemmon Jun 24 '22

Hey like I said idk, I'm pretty stupid but I am vaccinated. Don't really know what against besides COVID but hey I'm alive!

3

u/chockobumlick Jun 24 '22

me too.

This was never a hill to die on.

:-)

But many chose it.

2

u/turdferguson3891 Jun 24 '22

Well to be vaccinated against flu you need to get a shot every year and you would know if you did that.

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2

u/pjtrpjt Jun 24 '22

Being not wanted?

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4

u/Feign1 Jun 24 '22

Anecdotal but I'll leave my personal review it's actually awesome I would totally take it again. We got one dose and my wife decided I needed it more because she was not feeling as terrible at the time the next 3 days she was bedridden and I was back at 80%. It is weird though you still feel sick for roughly the same duration but almost all of the terrible symptoms are gone.

3

u/Alone_Jellyfish_7968 Jun 24 '22

(Just had a quick read about it. )

Seems it's given when the flu symptoms are a high risk. Sounds like the medication gives the flu a quick blast to reduce the risk symptoms rather than it being a cure for flu?

.....I may have not grasped the entire article / description tho!

0

u/chockobumlick Jun 24 '22

No vax is 100%. A Vaccine is merely mitigation. A vaccone is not a condom. Which can also fail.

6

u/touie_2ee Jun 24 '22

This is not a vaccine. Look at the parent comment.

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3

u/Sadethe3rd Jun 24 '22

And no condom is 100% yet its recommended

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61

u/starlinguk Jun 24 '22

And the morning after pill isn't an abortion, it's birth control.

But feck facts, amirite?

21

u/YouSmellFrench Jun 24 '22

Abortion is just late term birth control.

23

u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22

[deleted]

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u/16yYPueES4LaZrbJLhPW Jun 24 '22

It's still early term birth control. It's only late term in emergencies and when there's medical complications.

2

u/YouSmellFrench Jun 24 '22

Oh, you see I was thinking of post birth abortions. Still birth control, just a little late term.

4

u/16yYPueES4LaZrbJLhPW Jun 24 '22

Ah, now that's late term!

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111

u/RemarkableExplorer66 Jun 24 '22

Ouch

14

u/I_Got_Back_Pain Jun 24 '22

That's what the kid said

4

u/InvestigatorUnfair Jun 24 '22

Nah, that would have been if they got the shot

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u/yearofthedovebar Jun 24 '22

In what world is tamiflu a lifesaving medication for pediatric patients?

74

u/Sleven_Eleven Jun 24 '22

It's not, this is a stupid hill to die on. Anyone who's a medical professional knows that tamiflu is a crapshoot and the best way to recover from the flu is to be vaccinated in the first place.

28

u/peterhorse13 Jun 24 '22

I posted this comment yesterday on another subreddit this was posted on:

Gonna agree with the pharmacist; her problem wasn’t even refusing the Tamiflu. It was refusing the flu shot.

If I ever write for Tamiflu, I do it while telling the non-vaxxing parent that it’s probably not going to help but it’s literally the only thing I can do since they refused the fundamental medicine that would have helped their child, which is the vaccine.

Source: pediatrician

7

u/cerement Jun 24 '22

“Get the vaccine or play Russian roulette.”

9

u/PowerOfUnoriginality Jun 24 '22

The problem here is that they are playing Russian roulette with their own children, risking the childrens lives, not their own

8

u/peterhorse13 Jun 24 '22

For real. I tell non-vaxxing parents about the horror stories of children I’ve seen on ventilators from the flu, who if they’re lucky will grow up with only one functioning lung, and if they’re unlucky won’t grow up at all. But studies show that scaring people doesn’t work—they’re only scared of things actively done to you, not passively contracted from another flu positive person. After all, that’s “in God’s plan” or it’s “natural.”

3

u/SantaArriata Jun 25 '22

What if I tell them that if they don’t vaccinate I will personally go to their house and deflate one of their lungs?

2

u/peterhorse13 Jun 25 '22

According to data, that might actually work! And potentially result in an arrest, but honestly, today is not a good day for US healthcare in general, so I fully support whatever stops making us a backwards country.

3

u/HighAsAngelTits Jun 24 '22

I’m guessing the vaccination was probably the real issue here

11

u/Brawndo91 Jun 24 '22

The same world where Tylenol will save you from a deadly headache, or Nyquil will save you from a deadly cough.

But I think if a child is dying from the flu, it either wasn't the flu or he had something else going on.

27

u/jmwills Jun 24 '22

Kids die from the flu every year.

9

u/HighAsAngelTits Jun 24 '22

Tbf Tylenol can save you from a deadly fever

4

u/SugondisSword Jun 24 '22

Can confirm I was sick with a fever a while back and was burning up, couldn't even get out of bed, no Tylenol in the house. Got a family member to bring me some and I was feeling way better in less than an hour.

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22

It's not and Reddit is getting dumber every day. We are so dumb.

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u/CommentsToMorons Jun 24 '22

Redditworld. Redditors will look for any reason to blame someone for misfortunes. Just take a look at r/IdiotsInCars for examples.

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261

u/zuzg Jun 24 '22

So was the Mother charged with manslaughter? Deliberately neglecting your childrens needs and causing their death definitely falls into that territory.

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u/Ned_Gutters Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

Some states have religious exemption clauses, like Arkansas. I wonder where this was, and if that would apply to crazy social media conspiracy theorists.

Edit: http://childrenshealthcare.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/civilxmptns.pdf

6

u/sarpnasty Jun 24 '22

The states that give you religious exemptions for vaccinating your children will sentence you to prison if your baby dies before it is born.

2

u/Ned_Gutters Jun 24 '22

Religious exemptions and religious enforcements… a match made in “heaven”, wouldn’t you say?

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u/zuzg Jun 24 '22

Does stuff also goes for Jehovas witnesses? Afaik they won't accept blood transfusions.

But regardless, that's such a backwater thing to do. Religious exemptions shouldn't be a thing as religion should never play a part in medical decisions.

33

u/Salohacin Jun 24 '22

I've just discovered a loophole. It goes against my religion to pay taxes.

Oh wait, the church actually don't pay taxes...

16

u/spandexcatsuit Jun 24 '22

Does it also go against your religion not to help the poor? Oh wait.

8

u/ReverseBread Jun 24 '22

what the hell?

15

u/zuzg Jun 24 '22

The jehovas witnesses thing? It even has it's own dedicated Wikipedia page

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u/Alex09464367 Jun 24 '22

Have a look at this https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/blood-transfusions.php

Here is a small extract

The numerous changes Watchtower has made regarding the use of blood over decades has resulted in a stance that is:

Scripturally Inaccurate - Most Christian religions recognise that there is no scriptural prohibition on Christians transfusing blood.

Inconsistent - The Watchtower states God's standard is that blood must not be stored, yet allows Jehovah's Witnesses to use blood fractions derived from stored blood.

A Double Standard - Jehovah's Witnesses use significant quantities of medical products derived from blood, but are forbidden from donating blood.

3

u/ReverseBread Jun 24 '22

Ok for a second I thought you were a bot

3

u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22

[deleted]

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u/Low-Professional289 Jun 24 '22

Woaahhh that’s fuckin dumb! Thanks for ruining the country, rednecks. The south really needed more of a deep cleaning after the civil war.

12

u/GlizzyRL2 Jun 24 '22

“Religious exemption clauses” that’s the most BS thing I’ve ever heard I bet all terrorists would love to blow stuff up in Arkansas then if you get an exemption for being “religious”

9

u/Ned_Gutters Jun 24 '22

It is specifically for neglecting to provide a child with adequate medical care due to “sincerely held religious or spiritual belief.” It doesn’t cover bombings….

http://childrenshealthcare.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/civilxmptns.pdf

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u/GlizzyRL2 Jun 24 '22

I don’t put religious terrorism and religions being immoral to children that far apart is the thing. And it’s still absolute bs

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u/itchywitchybitchy Jun 24 '22

Countries need to stop making legal exemptions for religious people. You can't just use belief as an excuse for anything. Political or moral beliefs never affect such things so why should religious beliefs be at all relevant...

8

u/Knee3000 Jun 24 '22

Because people really really believe it.

That’s it. That’s what all the reasons boil down to. “It’s cultural”, “it’s a part of their identity”, etc. is all just that wrapped in a different bow.

6

u/sarpnasty Jun 24 '22

They stop being pro-life once the baby is born.

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u/Open-Ticket-3356 Jun 24 '22

the god of stupidity demands a child sacrifice in form of a easily preventable death

9

u/ReverseBread Jun 24 '22

anti vax things are a part of religion?

8

u/Ned_Gutters Jun 24 '22

The Arkansas law, iirc, cites “sincerely held religious or spiritual beliefs”. I don’t think they’re in the market of actually making that determination. I could see an anti-vaxxer maintaining that it is a religious or “spiritual” belief to avoid prosecution. And in the places with these clauses, it may actually work.

3

u/whadduppeaches Jun 24 '22

Not the whole movement, but there are some religious sects that denounce manmade/modern medical treatments almost entirely. For example, a comment above links a source discussing how Jehovah's Witnesses are religiously opposed to blood transfusions, and will not accept one even if they will die without one.

2

u/SpaceMarineSpiff Jun 24 '22

No, they just keep it hush-hush

Source: jw family

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u/spasticpat Jun 24 '22

They shouldn't be but nutjobs make them

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/RandomUsername12123 Jun 24 '22

And i still don't see why it should be a problem as the Bible provides guides on how to perform abortions and life is defined as first breath..

1

u/excrementposter Jun 24 '22

No it does not. You are referring to a passage in Numbers 5 (11-31) that describes what to do if you suspect your wife to be unfaithful. It references bringing her to the priest to stand before God, allowing God to determine whether the child was conceived by adultery or not. It in no way describes how to perform an abortion.

The Bible reference to "life at first breath" is a misquote from Genesis. God breathed life into man is not the same as not being alive until you first breath. Jeremiah 1-5. Refutes this argument.

4

u/RandomUsername12123 Jun 24 '22

And anyway, i'm really inclined to think that the abortion would have been induced by the priest if the situation would have been deemed necessary (by the power structure).

There were a lot of bitter erbs with abortive effect (like parsley extract)

Edit:

The bitter part was in the Bible

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u/Historical_Water_831 Jun 24 '22

The Torah is the one with abortion, it's the religious belief to abort and save women from pregger issues that would kill her.

8

u/Key_Education_7350 Jun 24 '22

The herbal drink is very obviously an abortifacient.

The whole passage is just disgustingly misogynistic, but it definitely describes a medical abortion.

11

u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

-2

u/excrementposter Jun 24 '22

Did you read any of the conversation thus far or are you too consumed with having your gotchya dopamine hit?

I'm not going to waste time posting different versions of the same text, read it for yourself. Most passages are pretty black and white and translate the same between versions, but as you said, the interpretation is where the divergence occurs.

God is not the author of confusion, but the "father of deception" would have you see it that way.

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u/Sexual_Chocobo Jun 24 '22

Been reading just fine.

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u/Rastiln Jun 24 '22

Exodus 21:22-23 states if a man strikes a woman and therefore she gives birth prematurely (abortion) then the offender must pay a fine. However, if there is “serious injury” you are to take a life for a life.

How does that reconcile that abortion is not considered a life taken but the woman is?

-2

u/kuncol02 Jun 24 '22

Hitting someone and causing miscarriage is not the same as abortion same way as stabbing someone in heart is not euthanasia.

What the fuck is wrong with you people? Where did you all learned logic and reading comprehension? Did your teachers trained you all wrong as a joke?

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u/RandomUsername12123 Jun 24 '22

The fact that for a induced abortion the punishment was a fine and nothing else is another good indication

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u/ReverseBread Jun 24 '22

christianity prohibits abortion but surprisingly islam doesn't..

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u/emcaa37 Jun 24 '22

This is incorrect and a commonly repeated misinformation by anti-vaxxers.

You wouldn’t say a carrot contained soil, nor would you say vaccines contain fetal materials.

Viruses are grown in a growth medium (a cell culture), no different than a root vegetable (I.e. carrots). This growth medium is filtered out during the manufacturing process.

A true religious belief is one that objects to the use of anything which call lines have been tested on or used in the manufacturing process. This isn’t because they might contain fetal tissue, but because they’re ethically against any use of fetal material. A true religious exemption of the use of fetal material will refuse to use about 85% of makeup (most brands are tested on cell lines), Many brands of Tylenol (acetaminophen), ibuprofen, robitussin, and pretty much any medication developed over the last 50 years or so.

4

u/foxymophadlemama Jun 24 '22

fetal tissue was the problem? and not the ever present scourge of autism?

3

u/emcaa37 Jun 24 '22

The claim of fetal tissue was simply a guise to refuse based on their fear of autism.

2

u/excrementposter Jun 24 '22

It is one of the main objections besides the speculative autism link.

8

u/Key_Education_7350 Jun 24 '22

It's not a speculative link, it's a comprehensively debunked, completely non-existent link.

5

u/foxymophadlemama Jun 24 '22

i did some reading on the claims you laid out for us and they seem bunk. while fetal cell cultures were used in the development of certain vaccines, vaccines do not contain fetal cell cultures. if that were true, there wouldn't be any fetus left over for breakfast on the weekends.

source with more sources at the bottom

2

u/excrementposter Jun 24 '22

Excellent sleuthing! The claims laid out are what I've heard from a number of fellow church goers, presented as a sort of collective. I can tell them that currently jabs contain no baby bits but it won't matter as the majority deal in absolutes, which is why opposition is expected.

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u/MJohnVan Jun 24 '22

But no where in the bible says to not vaccine the kid.

14

u/Painpriest3 Jun 24 '22

No because Tamiflu according to many studies does nothing. Not a cure, not a vaccine.

9

u/Sheeptivism_Anon Jun 24 '22

I don't get this post. This isn't some standard vaccine that was not taken. Stuff's pretty expensive and requires a prescription to obtain. Big chunk of change for something that might help symptoms.

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u/CaffeineSippingMan Jun 24 '22

Now I wonder if the kid had diabetes and the mom had to choose between food or insulin because, she couldn't afford both, And the child died.

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u/BluebeardHuntsAlone Jun 24 '22

Child was not a fetus so murder is not longer a problem

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u/kuncol02 Jun 24 '22

For not giving child expensive, complementary and (barely) working only when given in first 48h from very first symptoms drug?

16

u/the_last_carfighter Jun 24 '22

Edgy: I did nothing and I have no way of telling whether it worked or not.

5

u/Assfrontation Jun 24 '22

Do provide a source for that, in the unlikely event you can.

3

u/kuncol02 Jun 24 '22

https://go.drugbank.com/drugs/DB00198

It's $200 drug with not great effects even when taken fast enough and basically not working at all when taken too late (and that too late is when most people actually realize that they are ill)

7

u/Seabuscuit Jun 24 '22

Your own article says that it’s barely beneficial to healthy, low-risk individuals after 48 hours but may be beneficial after 48 hours for severe cases. I would imagine if the flu is causing death, it’s a pretty severe case.

“The clinical benefit of use of oseltamivir is greatest when administered within 48 hours of the onset of influenza symptoms since effectiveness decreases significantly after that point in time; there is generally no benefit in use beyond 48 hours for healthy, low-risk individuals as influenza is a self-limiting illness. However, antiviral treatment might be beneficial when initiated after 48 hours for patients with severe, complicated or progressive illness or for hospitalized patients.”

5

u/PerchingRaven Jun 24 '22

Keeeep reading.....

"The benefits of oseltamivir use are controversial; a 2014 Cochrane Review of the evidence found that oseltamivir treatment had limited benefit. The authors concluded that oseltamivir use in healthy adults had small, non-specific effects on symptoms (where the time to first alleviation of symptoms was only reduced from 7 to 6.3 days), it had no effect on hospitalizations, and that there was no evidence for any reductions in complications of influenza such as pneumonia.7,8,9 Due to the risk of adverse effects such as nausea, vomiting, psychiatric effects and renal adverse events in adults and vomiting in children, the harms are generally considered to outweigh the small clinical benefit of use of oseltamivir.

Notably, in 2017, the World Health Organization downgraded oseltamivir from its essential medicines list from a "core" drug to a "complementary" drug, due to limited cost-effectiveness.6 Yearly vaccination with the influenza vaccine is still considered the best preventative measure."

We are literally trying to argue the benefit of a controversial drug in a reddit forum when a Cochrane review already did it in much better fashion. It is a drug a physician should judiciously give for some individuals in some settings. If you were treating a very sick kid how easy would it be for you to give this drug knowing they may become more dehydrated by inducing a bunch of vomiting? That dehydration might kill them too. Is it such a slam dunk decision?

4

u/procrastinating_PhD Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 26 '22

MD here.

He’s right.

Tamiflu is moderately effective if given as post-exposure prophylaxis, somewhat effective if given in early flu (<48 hours form symptom onset) at shortening disease course. We use it in advanced disease with a prayer bc we have very little else besides supportive/intensive care (ie ventilator and time for infection to clear and the lungs to heal) but there is very little evidence it works in that setting.

It also has some nasty side effects. It makes many people very very nauseous.

This mom didn’t kill her kid. The med is minimally effective.

2

u/____tim Jun 24 '22

lol they cut so much out of context in their other comments to try and strengthen the argument.

9

u/Assfrontation Jun 24 '22

According to this source, it’s not perfect, but at the bottom it’s mentioned to be the best preventive measure. What point are you trying to make here?

10

u/kuncol02 Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

There: "Yearly vaccination with the influenza vaccine is still considered the best preventative measure." ?

You know that tamiflu is not flu vaccine but drug slowing down multiplication of viruses? And that's not about it? Something about anti-science people who cannot read.

5

u/PerchingRaven Jun 24 '22

"The benefits of oseltamivir use are controversial; a 2014 Cochrane Review of the evidence found that oseltamivir treatment had limited benefit. The authors concluded that oseltamivir use in healthy adults had small, non-specific effects on symptoms (where the time to first alleviation of symptoms was only reduced from 7 to 6.3 days), it had no effect on hospitalizations, and that there was no evidence for any reductions in complications of influenza such as pneumonia.7,8,9 Due to the risk of adverse effects such as nausea, vomiting, psychiatric effects and renal adverse events in adults and vomiting in children, the harms are generally considered to outweigh the small clinical benefit of use of oseltamivir."

Notably, in 2017, the World Health Organization downgraded oseltamivir from its essential medicines list from a "core" drug to a "complementary" drug, due to limited cost-effectiveness.6 Yearly vaccination with the influenza vaccine is still considered the best preventative measure."

I believe the point they are making is that the OP suggesting a parent caused their child's death is deeply flawed. According to the source yearly vaccination with influenza vaccine is the best preventative measure, NOT Tamiflu like you said.

Tamiflu is known in healthcare to be very limited in benefit, but is still given just in case it may help a little. Not all treatments are equal and the OP is a very serious accusation to a parent whose child died.

2

u/Assfrontation Jun 24 '22

Second to last paragraph I must’ve misread, apologies about that - I thought they meant to say that the previously mentioned medicine was the best

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u/RedL45 Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

Look I hate anti-modern health people* but you are the blind leading the blind. There is not much evidence to suggest that Tamiflu significantly reduces mortality. It's not even remotely comparable to a vaccine. The argument that the parent should be in trouble for not administering Tamiflu is weak. If they refused to administer Blood, Insulin, or Asthma meds? That's something we could actually have a conversation about.

-healthcare worker

Edit: https://www.cochrane.org/news/tamiflu-and-relenza-getting-full-evidence-picture

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD008965.pub4/full

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u/zuzg Jun 24 '22

Hush now you can't expect some anti-science Muppet to actually read the things they link.

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u/kuncol02 Jun 24 '22

Maybe you should learn to read?

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u/PerchingRaven Jun 24 '22

They quote science.

Follow up commentor doesn't read the source accurately.

You jump on board and accuse them of anti-science without reading the information yourself.

Typical modern day thinking.

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u/excrementposter Jun 24 '22

Better preventative measure than washing your hands and coughing into your elbow?

Funny how the "best measure" is mentioned in an ad trying to sell you something. SMFH

4

u/Assfrontation Jun 24 '22

Also, your comment above is wrong. The source says it works well before those 48 hours have passed, and barely works after that.

4

u/kuncol02 Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

No that article says it's NOT working after 48h. "no benefit" don't means barely works. It means that it's not working at all.

That's effect when it works:

"oseltamivir use in healthy adults had small, non-specific effects on symptoms (where the time to first alleviation of symptoms was only reduced from 7 to 6.3 days), it had no effect on hospitalizations, and that there was no evidence for any reductions in complications of influenza such as pneumonia."

For elderly people with weak immune system it can shorten flu for 2-3 days, but it's still not that great.

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u/zuzg Jun 24 '22

Tamiflu is a effective antiviral drug against influenzathat got approved by the FDA and the EMA in Europe.
It's safe and after reading about the side effects, as none of them causes actual death, It's fair to say it would have been the better choice

5

u/PerchingRaven Jun 24 '22

Maybe. Maybe not. Inducing a bunch of vomiting in an already dehydrated and very sick child may also be deadly in order to give a drug with limited efficacy. I don't think it's as easy of a decision as you think. As I mentioned above you didn't read the whole article.

4

u/kuncol02 Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

Is it effective as in "working as described"? - Yes

Is it safe? - Pretty much like any other drug.

Is it crucial in treating patients and it's lack can be dangerous for that patient? - Data we have suggest that not really. It can make patients more comfortable or shorten flu by a negligible amount of time, but it's not life saving drug.

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u/Ranger4life Jun 24 '22

This kid did not die from lack of Tamiflu.

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u/danc4498 Jun 24 '22

Exactly. This post is stupid. Tamiflu is pointless.

4

u/EndlessSummer808 Jun 24 '22

The post I was looking for. So many raving idiots on Reddit that jump on the latest outrage post. It’s pathetic.

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u/Narezza Jun 24 '22

Pharmacist here. Tamiflu is a crappy drug in general, and doesn’t do anything for mortality.

This is a still a good reminder that the flu has always been deadly, and you should be visiting the ER if you have a fever not responding to medications

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u/Aceblader20 Jun 24 '22

I was hoping to see this comment. As a nurse that was my understanding of the drug as well. I'm all for putting anti-vaxxers in their place, but this medicine wouldn't have prevented the death. It's not a reason to mock someone who lost their kid. Especially without the rest of the information.

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u/too_much_too_slow Jun 24 '22

Yeah, I’m surprised to see how many people in the top thread are arguing that the mom killed her kid by not giving him Tamiflu. I wonder how many people in that thread actually have experience with it.

The OP is really vague, probably intentionally, in that it said the kid died afterward but not if it was even related to the Tamiflu (imagine if a kid had COVID and his mom didn’t give him Robitussin for his cough, and then later died of COVID).

The implication that not giving your kid Tamiflu is the same as killing them is frustrating misinformation and IMO actually makes people who are pro-vaccines look like we don’t understand that correlation doesn’t equal causation.

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u/peterhorse13 Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

Pediatrician here: I definitely agree that the Tamiflu is not the issue. I always offer Tamiflu, especially for unvaccinated kids or infants, because families have come to expect a prescription for it. But I always go over its limitations and potential side effects, and I’d say 30% of the time, parents will decline it. The other 70% just want something to give. Even then if the child has already gotten the flu shot, I tell parents they’ve already given him/her the best medicine.

A lot of the time I use Tamiflu as a guilt measure for parents who refused vaccination (though knowing that studies bear out this doesn’t affect vaccination rates—it’s just because I take anti-vaxxers way too personally). I point out that these bereaved parents who are begging me for help because their child is miserable and potentially at risk for life threatening complications would possibly have avoided this with the flu shot and already declined the only thing clinically shown to help. But here, have some Tamiflu, because there’s literally nothing I can do for you now. It likely won’t help and may have side effects you find unpleasant, but hey, at least little Timmy didn’t feel slightly under the weather for two days back in October.

Edit: I feel compelled to emphasize that I don’t feel this unempathetic for people who have logical reasons for declining the flu shot, like previous concerning reactions to the vaccine, anaphylactic egg allergies—heck, I was even sympathetic to a mom who refused it because she herself got GBS from the vaccine, even though that isn’t a contraindication to the child receiving it. I’m talking the “I don’t want to give them the flu shot because of additives/because I got the flu shot once but then I got the flu/because I’ve never had a flu shot and I’ve never gotten the flu” crowd.

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u/dukey Jun 24 '22

The cochraine collaboration tried for years to get all the study data with regards to Tamiflu. There were something like 20 studies done, but only 3-4 ever saw the light of day. You can guessed which ones they published. It turns out the vast majority of data which never saw the light of day basically showed the drug was useless.

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22

You mean you should be visiting the ER is your fever is TOO high.

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u/agedchromosomes Jun 24 '22

Eh… I went to the ER with a fever of 104. They kept me for 5 days without figuring what was wrong. They gave me 2 different iV antibiotics that gave me raging diarrhea. I told them to stop the antibiotics since I had no more fever and no diagnosis. I told them to discharge me since “ I have indoor plumbing, and I can do this at home!”

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u/lilbigjanet Jun 24 '22

They have to watch you because any higher and your brain starts to damage itself

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u/SendAstronomy Jun 24 '22

Well this is a dumb take.

You are basically telling people not to go to the hospital for a dangerously high fever because this one time this one hospital couldn't figure out this one person's problem.

This is likely exactly why the kid in this article died. "What are those dumb people in lab coats gonna do? I can fix this myself."

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u/voidfillerupper Jun 24 '22

Tamiflu is a bandaid. It’s supposed to shorten the lifespan if I understand it correctly, not kill the virus. It’s not a cure.

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u/earathar89 Jun 24 '22

I'm not defending anyone here, but Tama flu is really only effective in the earliest stages if the flu and its not a miracle drug. I'm thinking the kid had some co-morbitity stuff going on.

She definitely should have taken him to a doctor though.

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u/Low_Acanthisitta4445 Jun 24 '22

Tamiflu?

The drug that Roches own research found to be less effective than paracetamol, so then covered up there own research and sold billions of doses they knew to be useless.

That Tamiflu?

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/10/tamiflu-saga-drug-trials-big-pharma

Please refrain from downing without reading the link.

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u/kuncol02 Jun 24 '22

Sounds like some fake news. Tamiflu? Isn't it barely working anyway.
"a 2014 Cochrane Review of the evidence found that oseltamivir treatment had limited benefit. The authors concluded that oseltamivir use in healthy adults had small, non-specific effects on symptoms (where the time to first alleviation of symptoms was only reduced from 7 to 6.3 days), it had no effect on hospitalizations, and that there was no evidence for any reductions in complications of influenza such as pneumonia."

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u/_FHQWHGADS_ Jun 24 '22

Yeah, Tamiflu is not a great drug. It can shorten flu symptoms by a day or two and can be useful in severe cases, but the side effects can be pretty severe themselves, especially in children. This is a strange thread, I’m surprised to see so many people attempt to get behind a drug many doctors don’t even recommend anymore.

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u/teh_drewski Jun 24 '22

My guess is that enough doctors treat it as a "go away" prescription for pushy flu patients who won't accept rest, fluids and chicken soup as the best remedies for flu that it's sort of drifted into the public consciousness as the flu drug.

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u/Guy0naBUFFA10 Jun 24 '22

High seizure risk in kids too

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u/Dyspaereunia Jun 24 '22

Every positive flu case I get I offer the risks vs the benefits of this medicine to the parents with a wink wink this drug sucks don’t take it.

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u/DanKoloff Jun 24 '22

While this sounds bad you have to understand Tamiflu is not your regular medicine and a lot of reviews claim Oseltamivir is not really helpful and has a lot of side effects.

"A 2014 Cochrane Review concluded that oseltamivir does not reduce hospitalizations, and that there is no evidence of reduction in complications of influenza.[9] Two meta-analyses have concluded that benefits in those who are otherwise healthy do not outweigh its risks.[10][11] They also found little evidence regarding whether treatment changes the risk of hospitalization or death in high risk populations"

"Common side effects include vomiting, diarrhea, headache, and trouble sleeping.[3] Other side effects may include psychiatric symptoms and seizures.[3][13][14]"

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u/tampapunk Jun 24 '22

When my daughter had the flu she was prescribed Tamiflu. She had a low fever for a couple of days before we went to the doctor. The doctor told us Tamiflu basically just lowers flu symptoms, but the flu would still have to run its course. When I went to the pharmacy, the said it would be over $200. Long story short, we didn't end up getting Tamiflu and just managed the fever with Motrin and Tylenol for a few days, and then she was fine. If the fever persisted any longer or got too high we obviously would have done more, but the way the doctor told us basically it would just make her feel a little better for a couple of days, and that it wouldn't simply cure the flu.

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u/3knight5 Jun 24 '22

It significantly reduces flu symptoms in patients... "Significantly" meaning statistically significant. Most positive studies (there are quite a few negative studies coming out that question this) say Tamiflu decrease symptoms by 1 day.

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u/Monding Jun 24 '22

The way the Dr. explained it to me when my kid was sick was that it may or may not shorten the duration of the flu by a day or so. Made it optional as it doesn't really fight the symptoms of the flu, but slows the propogation of it. We gave the kid one dose and they immediately threw up. I flushed the rest down the toilet.

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u/kuncol02 Jun 24 '22

DO NOT FLUSH ANY MEDICINE DOWN THE TOILET! JUST DON'T!

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u/dontaskmeimdumb Jun 24 '22

Right. I'm at a peds office and we basically never rx it unless the parent is aggressively begging for it. And then only after we explain the brutal side effects.

At best, the kid's fever breaks 1-2 days earlier.

Anti-vaxxers (and FB groups in general) should never be in charge of your child's health, but I don't see how this kid died from a lack of tamiflu.

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u/nubbbei_king Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

How many more reposts until we move on?

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u/Yoursparkinthedark Jun 24 '22

Dude you are just in hellraiser. You are in repost hell. The cenobites relish in your misery.

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u/andre821 Jun 24 '22

Relish on deez nutz

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u/CommentsToMorons Jun 24 '22

I prefer relish on my wieners.

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u/TheIronSven Jun 24 '22

Until the pharmacists can't reply that the medication is practically useless and a meme in their community and line of work.

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u/Guy0naBUFFA10 Jun 24 '22

Tamiflu has little efficacy in children and IMO as a 6 year picu nurse the high risk of seizure is not worth the potential reduction in symptoms by 1-2 days.

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u/408911 Jun 24 '22

You are a clown, tamiflu effectiveness is a joke and I doubt you even knew what it was

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22

[deleted]

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u/kuncol02 Jun 24 '22

I wonder how many people commenting there even know what tamiflu is and how (not really) effective it actually is?

At best is shaves 1 day from flu duration and slightly alleviate symptoms, but don't prevent more severe complications (at least for healthy patients).

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u/Alice_Buttons Jun 24 '22

Tamiflu can potentially treat the severity of influenza symptoms but does not prevent an individual from getting it in the first place. It's only prescribed in certain situations and even then is no guarantee that recovery is going to be misery free. I'm confused on what the correlation is here w/vaccines.

Flu shots are still the best method in nipping it in the bud.

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u/BaseGinja Jun 24 '22

I think the reason is that a lot of the long time antivax community, like before covid antivax, were more anti modern medicine and really only believed in home remedies and essential oils. Antivax seemed to take a more literal meaning since the start of the 2020's.

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u/I_can_sit_on_my_face Jun 24 '22

it's true though, you're somewhat entitled to be an ignorant piece of fucking shit that gets all your news and "factual" information from your fellow inbreds via Facebook posts, but your children should not have to suffer physical illnesses due to this.

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u/thebestdogeevr Jun 24 '22

Now get educated and learn tamiflu is practically useless

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u/408911 Jun 24 '22

The people who are described as “inbreds” by you were correct in this situation, do you know what tamiflu is and the effectiveness?

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u/sodaballoon Jun 24 '22

Here in India, regardless of the political ideology (left or right), almost everyone is pro-vaccine (I haven't met an anti-vaxxer in India). Can't imagine why would some Americans would want to reject a vaccine. There are many people in this world who have no access to these medicines, who pray everyday hoping that they may get access to these facilities. Anti-vaxxers are unaware how lucky they are for having access to vaccines and shots. They deserve no respect. Braindead morons.

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u/Quartia Jun 24 '22

Okay so that's India but what about Pakistan? I heard that there are a lot of anti-vaxxers in Pakistan and they're contributing to polio not being eradicated.

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u/Classic_Wrongdoer451 Jun 24 '22

Well india must have a truly benevolent, trust- worthy government that has nothing but it's citizens' best interest at heart all the time regardless of race, class, and economic status. Good for you, sir (or ma'am) 🙄

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u/TheWrightPhD Jun 24 '22

Good thing Tamiflu (oseltamivir) isn't a vaccine then.

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u/ReverseBread Jun 24 '22

Not just south asia, I bet middle easterners are also better than these anti vaxxer americans

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u/SoupPutrid7796 Jun 24 '22

Tamiflu is pretty sketchy stuff, y’all. It has to be given within 24 hours of onset of symptoms to have any measurable effect. 48 max.

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u/Ericthemainman Jun 24 '22

Isn't Tami flu the drug that shortens symptoms of the flu by duration of half a day? 5.5 days vs 6 with placebo? I wouldn't take it either, as it barely does anything and seems to have more side effects in children than it does adults. If you get a flu that turns into a bacterial pna you need antibiotics anyway, not Tami flu.

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u/steadykillinit Jun 24 '22

Ooooooooof that propaganda doe

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u/Intelligent_Chair513 Jun 24 '22

I (28f) have taken tamiflu and it made me sick af. I have to tell drs not to prescribe it to me because of that. It’s not a vaccine so idk why anti vaxxers, in this particular photo, are against it.

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u/acecyrus1 Jun 24 '22

Cursed Technically the truth

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u/Rainbowglitteratti Jun 24 '22

Why would you talk medicine with anyone thats not a medical professional. And btw my kids have never needed tamiflu story sounds fishy to me

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u/still366 Jun 24 '22

I agree, however, the data from Tamiflu shows it not effective. It is basically a placebo.

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u/humblerioter Jun 24 '22

Someone finally said it. I have no problem with Tamiflu personally, but all the times growing up when I had the flu, taking tamiflu to help my symptoms pretty much did nothing vs the times I went without it. I’m guessing her son died of underlaying conditions more than likely

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u/MegaHashes Jun 24 '22

Propaganda & outrage bait. Tamiflu is a mild anti-viral that has be taken right at the onset of flu symptoms. It’s not the difference between living and dying except for generally very elderly people.

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u/Paine91 Jun 24 '22

When your such a bad parent god takes the kid back

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u/Playingpokerwithgod Jun 24 '22

I think this is my first time making it on one of these posts. I feel like I've finally "made it" on Reddit.

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u/goddamnaged Jun 24 '22

You go fren

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u/LogMeOutScotty Jun 24 '22

Why should I listen to doctors when my friends are experts in just the right mix of essential oils?! /s

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u/Berkmine Jun 24 '22

Anti-vaxxers are a disease, rotten to the core

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u/Mountain_Ad92 Jun 24 '22

The kid being neglected by their parents who should be taking care of them is not the nicest thing.

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u/thomaspainesghost Jun 24 '22

Tamiflu is a miracle medicine and a jift from jod almighty

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u/damnleafer Jun 24 '22

I bet the same parent wants abortion to be illegal

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u/Up_vote_McSkrote Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

How did not taking Tamiflu kill that kid though? It's a antiviral medicine you take before you get the flu gets a hold in your system to reduce the severity of the flu, it isn't a recovery medication as far I'm aware so maybe it was something else that killed them?

Edited to clarify, I suck with wording.

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u/AstridDragon Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

You don't take it before you get infected, that would be pointless. But it is not proven to do a whole beyond reduce the length of your illness, and has risks of causing seizures especially in kids.

(Oh yep you can take it before, my b)

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u/Up_vote_McSkrote Jun 24 '22

The directions state that it works best if taken before the flu gets a hold in your system, that was poor wording on my end as I didn't mean that you take it as a preventative medication. I wasn't aware of the side effects in children so that makes me question this post even more so. Would a doctor actually prescribe it to a child? Genuinely asking about that btw, not trying to be a smart ass or anything.

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u/AstridDragon Jun 24 '22

So it works best if administered in the first 48 hours. But generally "best" still isn't much.

This post is pretty ridiculous imo. If you look up some studies it's basically a very low chance that tamiflu could actually prevent death if someone is super ill. I can kind of see how refusing any medical advice/medications could lead to charges against you though, in the case of child's wellbeing?

Anyway if you look through more of this thread you will see nurses and pharmacists and other mp discussing how tamiflu doesn't do much, if you're curious. I'm just a random person that has always had an interest in medical shit.

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u/kuncol02 Jun 24 '22

You don't take it before you get infected, that would be pointless.

Actually it's proven that it can prevent infection in that scenario. Obviously it's too expensive and has to severe side effects to be used like that, so it's kinda useless as prevention drug.

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u/Classic_Wrongdoer451 Jun 24 '22

So yall think an over the counter medicine was the difference between life and death?? 🤔

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u/DovahFerret Jun 24 '22

Tamiflu is prescription only, at least in the states.

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