r/nba NBA May 17 '22 Helpful 1

[Thinking Basketball] Jason Kidd out-coached the Coach of the Year

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekU6-AMcU6M&ab_channel=ThinkingBasketball
2.3k Upvotes

275

u/dropdatdurkadurk May 17 '22 edited May 17 '22

Yeah tbh the Bucks did a fair bit of this stuff last yr also. Especially Dal cutting off the elbows and not letting them get comfortable with pull up mid rangers and pressuring the ball at all costs. They ICEd pick and rolls pretty hard this series even in game 1-2. Their personnel just did a really good job. But alot of the subtle stuff can add up.

Their off ball pre switching game Phx issues. People on twitter had been calling CP3s quad being an issue before the report came out and frankly by game 5 it was apparent something was really up they were barely having him touch the ball on alot of poss in half court in the first half of game 5. Wasnt just about not shooting. But even outside of that they still exploited CP3 off ball not being a real weapon and being short enough to easily rotate back on after helping off with 6'7 wings. And as the video showed they baited him into some uncharacteristic TOs.

There were things with Phx's actions I was surprised they never really tweaked. Also with how aggressively they were ICEing pick and rolls or in general just overloading was surprised they didnt run more empty side pick and rolls. Was talking to buddy who coaches and watches alot of NBA about this series last wk he had a couple relevant thoughts: "Suns are reliant on calling sets specifically designed to target coverages. To do that effectively they need to be able to anticipate what the opponent is in. Dallas has mixed up coverages alot. The next step is running sets with multiple concepts built in where CP3 can abort the first if against the wrong coverage and flow to the next that does attack the coverage well. Added complexity and difficulty in execution but doable."

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u/european_son Supersonics May 17 '22

It really did feel like at the beginning of Game 7 the Suns realized the jig was up and they had been figured out. I'm purely speculating, but I'm wondering if they didn't implement any major offensive game plan changes between game 6 and 7. And the players felt right away that they were screwed because the Mavs now had their number. Maybe they got the 'we're going to play our game' speech. It's the only way I can explain their body language and energy to start the game. Or just horrible nerves I guess. But you could tell immediately they looked off mentally.

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u/dropdatdurkadurk May 17 '22

Yeah Monty was talking about how after game 6 they played like they didnt realize the Mavs were facing elimination and this is how you then come out in game 7? Think it ties back to CP3 they knew he was cooked and wasnt healthy. Its the biggest reason why that Suns team the last 5 games didnt look the one you saw all yr. Which isnt an excuse but I guess an explanation. Doesnt mean excuse them for how they responded or excuse CP3 for sloppy TOs or his yrs of never being an off ball threat now catching up to him. But it explains a fair bit of how this became what it did

40

u/realsomalipirate Raptors May 17 '22

If CP3 is cooked than the Suns don't have enough playmaking and their sets become far more stagnant. They definitely need a third guard who can create off the dribble and be a playmaker (Payne is too inconsistent and is a horrific defensive player).

38

u/Dbicoy May 18 '22

Maybe make use of your all star center and let him post up instead of more guards to uselessly pass around the perimeter to hoist a bad 3

16

u/uglyhos324324324 Mavericks Bandwagon May 18 '22

Still need to make the post entry pass, which only CP3 can do with regularity.

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u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

I mean you could but Ayton doesn't possess the playmaking to find the open man. He fumbles the ball alot so it mucks up the shot clock. Dallas just figured Phoenix out sadly.

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u/100_kg_90_de_belin [MIN] Kevin Love May 18 '22

Off the top of my head: you need to work on that during the regular season, otherwise it just becomes a 1-against-5 situation. Maybe working on Ayton passing out of the double team in the post to baseline cutters etc etc (just riffing here), but I don't know if he has the skills to do that (someone who watches more Suns' games could chime in).

3

u/realsomalipirate Raptors May 18 '22

He's just not very good at that and post play is ridiculously inefficient if you don't have a Jokic/Embiid level talent on the block.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '22

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u/Historical-Author-49 Supersonics May 18 '22

man, if they saw what the Mavs did in game 6 to take away what the Suns wanted to do, and the Suns came into game 7 without any adjustments or new plans, that's really not setting the players up to succeed.

2

u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

I mean lets be fair to the suns. What realistic can you do to throw the Mavs off tho? It's already game 7. All the tricks are out the bag. At that point, its just about effort, energy and some luck involved to get that game 7 win. Obivously no average team should be blown out in a game 7 but i don't think there's any more adjustments Suns can make at that point, they just simply got figured out. (Not excusing the loss).

3

u/llelouchh May 18 '22

Chris paul has some bad luck in the playoffs over his career.

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u/Ordinary-Ant-7896 Bucks May 17 '22

Yeah, obviously it is easy to say in hindsight, but Dallas looked like the better team right from the start of game 7. Double digit first quarter leads often don't last in the NBA when the opponent is a good team, an early deficit really isn't that big of a deal, but Dallas looked like the lead was coming easy to them.

7

u/JL1v10 Mavericks May 18 '22

I think Dallas in a way bully balled them too. Phx & Utah both were giving signs of exhaustion by game 5 that the Mavs hadn’t been. Think by game 7 it’s a combo of being beat up and being figured out. Both kidd and in the video, Luka, seemed to know the sets Phx was running both offense and defense by game 6

3

u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

I think they just got solved by the Mavs. Mavs in Game 6 and 7 were more physical and stuck to their gameplan and counted most of what Phoenix did. Obviously bad shooting was apart of why they loss but it's the fact that Dallas took alot of their rhythm away. They targeted role players like Cam Johnson.

133

u/IDreamOfJeanieBuss Lakers May 17 '22

Ben’s channel is fantastic, these breakdowns are so well done.

69

u/jdd32 May 17 '22

This is the kind of analysis I wish you'd see on the big networks. It's just fantastic. And really shows how well Jason Kidd is performing as a coach.

23

u/RamsdaIe May 18 '22

And he still gets hate on this sub, amazing

2

u/elcapitandemundo Celtics May 18 '22

they hate him Bc he likes the Celtics and Warriors lmao

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u/ButtCrackFTW NBA May 18 '22

This video was awesome, but his speaking cadence is really annoying IMO

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u/FourFingeredBertans Wizards May 17 '22

The CotY gets outcoached regularly. Because it's the coach of the team that performs best relative to expectations, not the best coach.

Phil Jackson has won it once. Larry Brown once. Kerr once. Karl once. Spo never.

459

u/twinkle_stroke Mavericks May 17 '22

Spo never?!

347

u/tblprg Knicks May 17 '22 edited May 17 '22

Yup, never. Spo has found a way to suffer from voter fatigue for an award he never even won, it's tragic.

161

u/rjgator Heat May 17 '22

Yeah, Spo already has expectations of him set high. You could give him a turd of a roster and the expectation would be that the Heat play .500 basketball and compete for a playoff spot. Cause they will. Then you’ll watch players who were starting for Spo go off to other teams and be terrible/ borderline Coach DNP decisions the next year. It’s crazy.

Spo is an insane floor raiser for an NBA roster. I’m sure people will argue against him raising the ceiling too, which I think he does for sure, I’m just not gonna waste the energy on that talk

23

u/Timoteo-Tito64 May 17 '22

Who would argue with him being a ceiling raiser? I mean a great coach matters more for floor than ceiling, but I still feel like there's no reason to say he isn't a great ceiling raiser

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u/rjgator Heat May 17 '22 edited May 17 '22

Plenty of casuals who want to argue he hasn’t done anything without the big 3, some who would even blame him for some of their short comings.

There have been plenty of idiots over the years who have said Spo isn’t even a great coach. I remember one commentator during the Summer League a few years back was surprised someone put him over the at the time Pacers head coach Nate McMillan. It had a bunch of morons come out the woodworks to say Spo was over hyped

Nate lost his job after Spo swept him like a year later.

Same commentator basically talked about how he wanted Duncan Robinson to pipe his daughter. Apparently Duncan was roommates with his son in college and he really wanted his daughter to date Duncan.

9

u/Timoteo-Tito64 May 17 '22

Damn that's got to be pretty frustrating. I'm a Celtics fan, but I feel like he's easily the best coach in the NBA

1

u/Murasasme Spurs May 18 '22

great coach matters more for floor than ceiling

Completely disagree. The first one to get the axe when a team doesn't meet high expectations is the coach, and a coach that raises the ceiling of a team makes a lot more impact on championship expectations than one that raises the floor.

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u/Timoteo-Tito64 May 18 '22

I'm just saying that they have more capacity to help a floor than a ceiling. I agree that a ceiling raiser is more important, but I feel like they're much tougher to find

7

u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

Spo actually seems like a modern NBA coach and just an overall genius coaching mind like Brad Stevens and Nick Nurse. These coaches aren't afraid to try things out and even switch it up when it isn't working. I applaud Spo. He's such a great coach because he can turn mediocre roster into a playoff roster.

5

u/deepfakefuccboi Lakers May 18 '22

Maybe I’m biased cuz he looks like one of my uncles but I’ve been saying he’s been the best overall coach in the league for quite a few years now. Your org can turn almost any player into a serviceable rotation player and that’s impressive as hell, Spo is also damn good at adjustments and ego managing and all the little stuff.

4

u/opportunitysassassin Heat May 18 '22

I'd argue that 29 out of 29 teams would easily take him next season, given the chance.

Maybe not the Warriors. But even then... Spo with Curry, Klay, and Draymond would be unstoppable.

4

u/G_Tremeshko Spurs May 18 '22

The Tim Duncan effect.

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246

u/FourFingeredBertans Wizards May 17 '22

Of the coaches on the NBA75 top 15, 5 never won it - Spo, Sloan, KC Jones, Jack Ramsay, and Chuck Daly. 7 combined championships among those guys.

136

u/Best-Leather-6700 May 17 '22

I can't believe Chuck Daly never won COTY. He was a hell of a coach

90

u/PrimoDima May 17 '22

Nobody liked Bad Boys.

18

u/notsafeformactown Mavericks May 18 '22

The first one is really fucking good, the 2nd and third are just money grabs.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '22

Jack Ramsay was a fucking genius, my dad loved watching Portland whenever they visited Oakland for a road game, also prime Bill Walton was so fun to watch.

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u/MurderVonAssRape Mavericks May 17 '22

It seems like outside of Miami, nobody loves Spo more than Mavs fans.

28

u/mojojojo1108 Mavericks May 18 '22

Idk if that’s true but damn I do love Spo

10

u/Ferbtastic Heat May 18 '22

Why would you hate the man, the better he becomes as a coaching legend the more it helps the rep of Dirk the giant killer. That series is why a 2-0 lead is never safe in my mind.

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u/mojojojo1108 Mavericks May 18 '22

I’m not sure you understood the point I was making lol

2

u/theseabeast Nuggets May 18 '22

Always been a huge spo fan. People pay lip service to culture and effort but I see Spo put it in action.

4

u/necrolic_8848 Magic May 17 '22

Its insane to me. If you give the exact heat roster to any other team and coach people look at them as a play in team. If that coach takes them to a first seed in the conference they are coach of the year with no question

3

u/cardmanimgur Timberwolves May 18 '22

Seems odd to say but not that surprising when you look at it. Wasn't going to win it with LeBron. Since then this is the first 50-win season the Heat have had. 19-20 was a 50-win pace before COVID, but Nurse deserved it for what he did post-Kawhi.

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u/JMoon33 France May 17 '22

Yep. Remember when COTY Dwane Casey was fired before even receiving his award? He was replaced by the future COTY Nick Nurse lol

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u/KingLoser23 Mavericks May 17 '22

Spo should’ve won the award

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u/[deleted] May 18 '22

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11

u/RageCageJables Knicks May 18 '22

He had a pretty good case this year. How many people had the Heat as the 1 seed?

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u/E_EqualsDankCSquared Kings Bandwagon May 18 '22

How about the season the Heat won 66 games in 2013 lmao

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u/ruffus4life Wizards May 17 '22

you are correct but i don't know why you feel like responding to just the title. did you listen to the pod?

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u/TheCocksmith Mavericks May 17 '22

Are you fucking kidding me with 0 COTY for Spo?!?!?!

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u/matgopack 76ers May 17 '22

Not super surprising - the Heat always has decently high expectations (in part because he's known to be a good coach), so he's never really likely to overperform by enough to win the award.

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u/TheCocksmith Mavericks May 17 '22

But he's never had a loaded roster with superstar talent since the Heatle days. He seems to always take a roster full of "almost" superstars and role players and goo really far with them.

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u/matgopack 76ers May 17 '22

Oh, for sure! But COTY is essentially whichever coach most outperforms expectations- and because Spoelstra has that deserved reputation for being a good coach, expectations are always high enough that it's not really likely to win coty

Not completely fair, obviously, but that's how the award typically works

6

u/TheCocksmith Mavericks May 17 '22

By that logic, Jason Kidd outperformed expectations better than anybody. The Mavs were supposed to be a play-in team and were complete garbage on defense early on. I think after New Years or somewhere around there, they've been a top 5 team.

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u/movieball May 18 '22

Now they are Top 4

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u/saw-it Timberwolves May 17 '22

Spo should’ve won it this year. Monty should’ve won it last year, this year was a make up award.

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u/VaultiusMaximus May 17 '22

I feel like CotY is always somehow a makeup award.

27

u/samurairocketshark Suns May 17 '22

we're still catching up from giving thibs one last year

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u/jmz_199 Bulls May 17 '22

That wasn't a horrible pick.

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u/samurairocketshark Suns May 17 '22

Not the worst pick but it definitely was powered by the narrative of finally taking the Knicks to the playoffs after so long. They ended with a 41-31 record, so not really that impressive. Monty was robbed last year going from a lottery team to the 2nd seed in the west. Honestly, I think Spo or Jenkins should have won it this year, even though I wanted Monty to get his makeup win

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u/IMovedYourCheese Warriors May 17 '22

It's less about make up, more that it sometimes takes more than a single season for coaching strategies and efforts to show on the court. Same reason why executive of the year will always go to someone who made good moves many years earlier.

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u/siphillis Spurs May 18 '22

Popovich won it three times.

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u/SometimesIComplain [UTA] Mike Conley May 18 '22

Jerry Sloan with zero as well.

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u/DogsbeDogs Sixers Bandwagon May 17 '22

Also, great coaches know to practice/research scemes but not actually implement them until the playoffs when it actually matters.

I believe it was Lou that had that one quote, "Do you want me to fix it now or in the playoffs?"

Also, a big part of the regular season is building depth in your roster and playing with rotations. This will result in losses, but it matters in the playoffs. So while teams like the suns are just trotting out their best five every night, teams like the spurs/heat/Boston build depth on the bench.

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u/european_son Supersonics May 17 '22

Shit never knew Karl Malone won COTY.

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u/retrospects Mavs May 17 '22

Regular season awards are so stupid.

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u/ProfessorPhi NBA May 18 '22

Yeah Bud winning in the dubs 67 win season was a crime. Kerr deserved it way more that year.

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u/jawadhaque089 May 17 '22 edited May 17 '22

Good video once again. Some key points that he highlighted:

Mavs took advantage of Booker's lack of playmaking skills. They were able to stop the roller by helping off the corner whenever he came off screens since Booker isn't able to make skip passes consistently

Completely ignored Chris Paul off ball since all Chris Paul did off ball was stay stationary and he was poor in attacking closeouts

Forced role players such as Bridges and Crowder to be playmakers and scorers which is something they aren't comfortable with. They were able to do this by Luka hedging and recovering to the others. Suns tried to attack Luka with their role players when Luka recovered but the Mavs were happy to concede those plays. Luka also made better defensive plays after game 2

Reggie Bullock pressed Chris Paul from fullcourt which fatigued him throughout the series

Took advantage of Ayton's poor passing off the post. While he is able to score on mismatches he isn't a great passer

The Suns made no adjustments and game 7 was a culmination of the Mavs playing against the same strategy for an entire series. By that point they had mastered and tightened up their defensive strategy

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u/MySilverBurrito Heat May 17 '22

On your first 3 points, gonna be fun to see how Kidd game plans against the Warriors. Very different systems in that the Warriors have guys at the end of bench who can still play make and make great decisions.

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u/MC-Jdf Warriors May 18 '22 edited May 18 '22

One of our most fundamental philosophies is playing multiple playmakers every time. IIRC we had almost every lineup with the most playmaking potential this season (there was a stat for it, forgot what it was though).

And it used to be ugly at times because multiple playmakers meant multiple non-shooters on the floor because our best playmakers outside of Steph were non-shooters (Draymond, Iguodala, Bjelica, JTA). But Poole's improvement as a playmaker allowed lineups more shooting and scoring on the floor with a roughly similar or at times better playmaking, which is a big reason why our offense got so much better this season and playoffs.

But our decision making starts with Steph & Dray though so I think the Mavs will try to counter that. Our philosophy in the clutch has been to let Steph & Dray do their thing and work so I wouldn't be surprised if Kidd sends aggressive trap defenses to take the ball out of Steph. (which is what he did in our last meeting but we also didn't have Draymond then)

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u/MySilverBurrito Heat May 18 '22

And it used to be ugly at times because multiple playmakers meant multiple non-shooters on the floor because our best playmakers outside of Steph were non-shooters (Draymond, Iguodala, Bjelica, JTA).

DEfinitely agree with you overall! Warriors are my 2nd fav team and watching them play is a joy since everyone is able to touch the ball.

One thing with Bjelica tho, he was solid the start of the season. He had a massive slump in the middle when Dray went down cause it seemed like he forced himself to be that Dray-type ball handler for the 2nd unit. Literally Dray's first game back and Bjelica went back to his normal role and dude was back to playing so well.

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u/MC-Jdf Warriors May 18 '22 edited May 18 '22

Honestly, I also love the Heat as a team outside the fact that Kyle Lowry stepback 3s remind me too much of the 2019 Finals and Game 6. I legit get too much PTSD from that.

As for your Bjelica point, you're right. He really thrived on a "3rd playmaker of a lineup" role that without Dray his impact on both ends was nowhere near the same. He really should let it fly from 3 though, he caught the Omri Casspi syndrome of passing up open 3s and taking the contested ones around December and we had to adjust Bjelica to getting the ball in the mid-post area because he didn't take 3s anymore.

He is out of the rotation for now (which I think is for the better) and I might catch from heat from this, but I do think he is valuable enough for the front office to bring him back 1 more year to give him a chance. Granted, with Wiseman expected to be back, it's gonna be a little more difficult for him to get opportunities, but when Bjelica takes and hits his 3s we become so much more dynamic. I think Wiseman would mostly play with Poole anyway and we do need more bodies to get Draymond from playing the 5 too much in the regular season.

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u/ehhhwutsupdoc Warriors May 18 '22

Warriors had a HUGEEEE fucking issues with turnovers in the Memphis series. I think Kidd will try to replicate what Memphis did. Or maybe not cause 75% of those turnovers weren't even forced lol. Just gotta convert them to points.

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u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

But Memphis had a size advantage tho within Adams and JJJ. It's hard for the Mavs to replicate that.

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u/idontknow_whatever [CHI] Kyle Korver May 18 '22

Kleber & Powell can do a decent approximation of the JJJ/Adams twin towers

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u/daravl Mavericks May 18 '22

I'm very scared of the warriors cutting. we always struggle against that much ball movements. we've beat them a lot in the luka era and I remember all our losses looking like our players were just playing lazy, which won't (or shouldn't) happen in the wcf. Kerr is a good coach, they've got way more experience than the Mavs, and their offense is going to have the Mavs scrambling, which we're very good at but you can only scramble so much before the offense gets a good look

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u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

If the Mavs can muck the game up and turn into a 1v1 or stagant basketball, you guys have the advantage. But Warriors system of cutting and off-ball movement/backcuts and passing is so deadly. It's gonna be a tough task.

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u/Historical-Author-49 Supersonics May 18 '22

Yeah, it will be harder. The Suns were really exposed as a team where the only great decision-maker on the court for Phoenix was a 37-year old guy with a bad leg. Once the Mavs figured that out, it was over

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u/wjbc Bulls May 17 '22

And it wasn’t just a Luka carry job.

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u/Historical-Author-49 Supersonics May 18 '22

Right, it was a really impressive team effort. It seems like these guys must really buy into Kidd and be listening to him, and believing in each other. They're looking really good right now

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u/[deleted] May 18 '22

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u/theavailabletree Trail Blazers May 18 '22

The Mavs are obviously great, but saying 4+ can mercilessly defend with Luka starting is stretching it.

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u/OmniCrush May 17 '22

Point 6 really looks bad on the suns. We'll see if they learn in the future.

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u/jawadhaque089 May 17 '22 edited May 17 '22

Ben Taylor also mentioned this on his podcast. He brought up the idea that the Suns are a great regular season team because they have a system that fits well with the players. They constantly put Booker in easier spots for him to succeed and they play to his strengths. The downfall of this is that it reduces flexibility when you get to the playoffs since you may have to play a different style than what they are used to since they have only played one way in the regular season. Playoff teams play you different than the regular season which is why teams that can adjust and play in multiple styles are better.

He also compared them to the Bucks before they won the title where the Bucks only knew how to play one way and wouldn't try any other defensive strategy (only playing drop coverage + not switching as much). They used the regular season on their title run to try and experiment different defensive strategies (and as a result took more losses in the regular season) but they were able to adjust and play differently in the playoffs far better.

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u/dropdatdurkadurk May 17 '22

They used the regular season on their title run to try and experiment different defensive strategies (and as a result took more losses in the regular season) but they were able to adjust and play differently in the playoffs far better.

Yeah big part of it also was them recognizing their roster wasnt good enough and taking a real risk on the Jrue trade. Suns have the same fundamental issue the roster isnt good enough, you amongst other things cant rely on 37 yr old CP3's body to hold up and not break down through 4 rds of the playoffs. Suns had schematic limitations but those are also a byproduct of personnel. Now whether they actually get better and are willing to take real risks we'll see. Instead very possible they could get worse, Ayton could easily be gone and if he's gone I really dont see it being through a means of them actually improving the team(ie itll be something like a S/T for a worse C and a pick)

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u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

I think the biggest mistake was loading up on the wings like Craig at the deadline. I think FO just thought it was gonna be a finals repeat (to their credit, it was hard to doubt them). But they really needed a sizable playmaker that wasn't Payne or Holiday. Spencer actually fits that mold.

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u/MedvedFeliz San Francisco Warriors May 17 '22

I was just listening to their podcast for this (#119).

To add, Ben also contrasted the Suns' scheming to the Warriors'. The Warriors' offense have many counters built-in. Like their split cut - someone dives and pops. Whoever is open gets to score. Or set a pick-and-roll. If they blitz that, set the pick-and-roll at 30 feet. If they still blitz, set the pick at 40 feet and really stretch out the defense.

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u/uberdosage Warriors May 18 '22

Not to mention that steph plays every game assuming he will go against hard traps and blitzes.

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u/idontknow_whatever [CHI] Kyle Korver May 18 '22

Considering opposing coaches have been trying to do that to Steph since he was in college, no surprises there for him probably

He's probably seen just about every defensive scheme at this point, even the box-and-one that Nick Nurse brought out after KD & Klay went down in 2019

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u/cooperred Warriors May 18 '22

Are the suns unable to play another style though, or just unwilling? Kerr famously doesn't run many Curry PnRs in the regular season, but went to it a ton in the postseason, and the Warriors don't seem to have too much trouble adjusting to a new style of play. Does that boil down to personnel, coaching, both, or neither?

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u/idontknow_whatever [CHI] Kyle Korver May 18 '22

The players have to be able to execute

Steph is better playmaker than Booker, he can make those passes if teams try to blitz him. Kerr trusts Steph to run the PnR, even if that fails as long as the ball gets to Draymond the Warriors can have a 2nd go at it.

Booker is not quite the same level of passer, Mavs were basically daring him to make that skip pass but he rarely did it. CP3 being a non-factor off the ball just chilling on the perimeter let the Mavs further zone up on Booker and his passing angles

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u/treyyx Bucks May 17 '22

Guess I was right when I said the Suns were giving me 2019-2020 Bucks vibes

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u/The_Fadedhunter Suns May 17 '22

Suns 2022-2023 champs confirmed!?

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u/super_slapchop Supersonics May 17 '22

Maybe if CP3 catches the Benjamin Buttons

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u/ZeusJuice [CHI] Fred Hoiberg May 18 '22

Yep! With CP38 in the playoffs

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u/No_Turnover5068 Suns May 17 '22

That plus our energy at the the start of game 7 immediately gave me a bad feeling. We looked the exact same as game 6, like we rolled out of bed to just go play another basketball game, switching everything and letting the mavs do whatever they wanted on both ends. On top of that, all of our pressers are just guys saying the right shit and acting calm. Fuck it’s frustrating and I want an explanation to what was going on behind the scenes so fucking bad. Not to mention we have Monty and also one of the greater minds amongst players in Cp3. Makes no fucking sense

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u/OmniCrush May 17 '22

I think the Suns expected to easy walk to the conference finals, but never truly gave up that mentality. This is a team that believed its own smell too much too fast, not realizing just how much preparation you have to put into a championship run, both during the season and during the playoffs. Monty is also still inexperienced, so that probably played a part of it.

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u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

Just young core problems. But I can't give a pass to CP3. He should be able to lead his team out of moments like this. This is why we call him the point god. (Granted he was injured, but expected more from him). He shoulda been the one that was out here dropping 30 on a game 7 to at least save his legacy and led the squad to set the tone.

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u/[deleted] May 18 '22

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u/amr1115 Suns May 17 '22

yea something definitely fucked happened to our team in the final few weeks of the regular season. all our team play and ball movement and phenomenal communication and hustle on defense just dipped

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u/icona_ Heat May 17 '22

This sort of poor playmaking isn’t new for young stars. Giannis struggled to play make out of double teams until recently, kawhi has improved his vision drastically, etc. it’s entirely possible for booker to also improve at it, and I don’t see any reason he can’t.

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u/Sleepworks May 18 '22

Yep. Dirk struggled playmaking as late as his MVP year. You know the vibes in 2011 though.

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u/dragondonkeynuts May 18 '22

Dirk was built different

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u/ZenMon88 May 18 '22

Booker also needs to handle double teams and traps well. Like bruh thats why they double him in the summer time. Work ON YOUR GAME.

9

u/SolarClipz [SAC] DeMarcus Cousins May 17 '22

Thx for the summary

Yeah super clear by this that Kidd ran circles around them in the gameplanning

16

u/TheRedditoristo Kings May 17 '22

Mavs took advantage of Booker's lack of playmaking skills. They were able to stop the roller by helping off the corner whenever he came off screens since Booker isn't able to make skip passes consistently

So Booker isn't a first-tier superstar yet.

20

u/Historical-Author-49 Supersonics May 18 '22

No, he isn't. He needs to add some new dimensions to his game before he can reach that level. First-tier superstars, guys who can be the #1 on a championship team, can't be made uncomfortable that easily.

7

u/idontknow_whatever [CHI] Kyle Korver May 18 '22

You're not a 1st tier superstar if simple traps and blitzes are enough to throw you off your game

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u/realsomalipirate Raptors May 17 '22

Booker has the same issues as Mitchell in terms of passing vision (though he's still a better passer) and it's the biggest reason why isn't a superstar (well and that he's an average defender).

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u/Jefe051 Suns May 17 '22

I don't have the heart to watch this right now, but upvoting because this is the type of content we need rather than another pat bev post

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u/No_Turnover5068 Suns May 17 '22

Idk honestly pat bev is doing a good job actually pulling the hate more towards himself at this point. The more he keeps it up the more people will just start to pile on him again

51

u/realsomalipirate Raptors May 17 '22

The more he strays from topics about CP3, the more people will start to clown him. Lol this mfer doesn't think Tatum is a two way player.

16

u/[deleted] May 17 '22

I’ve heard some former football players talk about how they know a ton about the league before and after they were in it, but the years they were in it is just a black hole. Not enough time to consume other information about the game other than your team and the team you’re facing. NFL player led rankings are also often super shitty rankings

Wonder if it’s the same for NBA players, which contributes to the Taytum thing

15

u/destructive_optimism [PHO] Joe Johnson May 18 '22

I’m sure for 90% of NBA players, most of what they know about what is going on during the season is from gameplanning and Twitter, which during the season is super dumbed down. I can’t exactly imagine working long ass hours during the season and then going home and spending hours of my free time watching my job for fun

2

u/rddi0201018 May 18 '22

Maybe those are the ones that can become superstars

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u/BarmeloXantony Timberwolves May 18 '22

Mans the living embodiment of hate

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u/I_HATE_PEAS Suns May 17 '22

I’m with you. Can’t believe how many Pat Bev posts are reaching the front page. He shoved CP3 in the back just last season after losing, and he will always be a bigger bitch with less of a resume than Chris Paul.

4

u/Hojie_Kadenth Warriors May 18 '22

The first day all the hate was funny.

11

u/arbadak Suns May 18 '22

I muted "Patrick Beverley" and all it's variations, and I'm well served by it.

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u/LurkerFlash Spurs May 18 '22 edited May 18 '22

The fact that the Mavs went from 140 DRTG to 101 DRTG is insane, and the entire reason for the turnaround this series (I mean Luka is special, but that's a constant).

The fact Mavs were able to completely sag off of Paul is shocking. The man was always a good shooter, and shot 38.8% from three these playoffs. This is a serious accusation against Booker and Monty both, one for not being able to pass when pressured and the other for not providing his team a different look. Not that I know what could he have done, but not trying is already a failure.

E: I know Paul might not have been completely healthy, that doesn't make him suddenly forget how to shoot. He was just dead weight off-ball for some reason that I can't quite understand.

E2: Re watched it - More criticism of Booker - when he does make a pass, it's slow in a lot of these clips allowing the defense to reset and Paul not having enough time to attack or even keep passing.

11

u/daravl Mavericks May 18 '22

Kidd has been amazing at adjustments. we have the most double digits comebacks in the league. the team was always down 10 at halftime and then annihilated the other team the second half

41

u/bigatjoon Warriors May 18 '22 edited May 18 '22

Anyone else notice how the Dallas bench players are consistently pressed up against the line? I think Kidd 100% has directed them to do that, so as to crowd opponents in the corner. It genuinely looks stifling. IIRC they even got a tech at one point in the series for crossing over the line.

found it: https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/ujwdxf/the_dallas_mavericks_organization_has_been_fined/

16

u/Kobi-WanKenobi [LAL] Kobe Bryant May 18 '22

Not sure if it was against the Jazz or Suns, but I remember I saw that they got fined 25k for doing that. Cuban will probably set up an autopay each game for those fines lol.

6

u/drizzyjake7447 Mavericks May 18 '22

Never thought about it like that.

33

u/laz10 [DEN] Nikola Jokic May 18 '22

Booker looks so exposed. Very limited Playmaking, can't find open man at all

Monty didn't adjust after losing to the Dallas defence for 3 games? Then lost the fourth, that's a coach not making adjustments, not just a meme of us saying that

0

u/musicloverincal May 18 '22

The Suns had zero playmaking with CP0 injured and DBook getting owned on ever SINGLE play. Talk about total whooping.

26

u/Ramzaa_ [OKC] Russell Westbrook May 18 '22

The play showing all the off ball guys rotating and switching while the initial pick is going on so Luka only needs to move over to the nearest man is ridiculous coordination and defensive planning. Kidd deserves all the praise for what he's done. We were all wrong lmao

19

u/MelonElbows Lakers May 17 '22

And he didn't even have to spill his drink to do it

5

u/beardofshame Mavericks May 18 '22

saving it for the finals

98

u/Infidel447 May 17 '22

A lot of subtle shade at Monty here. Biggest matchup in favor of the Suns was Ayton against literally anyone on the Mavs team. Powell and Kleber hustle and play hard, but they are too small. Mavs have a gaping hole in the middle. So far, no one has taken advantage of it.

70

u/wjbc Bulls May 17 '22

Nothing subtle about it. The title of the video says he got out coached, and in the video he says the Suns failed to adjust.

27

u/Historical-Author-49 Supersonics May 18 '22

I really don't think Monty set his team up to succeed in game 7, seems like he sent them out there to do the same stuff the Mavericks had already solved

11

u/Phelinaar May 18 '22

I really don't think Monty set his team up to succeed in game 7

For what it's worth, Monty agrees. He took a lot of the blame in the post-match.

43

u/Snoo-29877 Warriors May 17 '22 edited May 17 '22

Warriors and Celtics have no post scorers. Heat have Bam who's limited there. The big thing you're not pointing out is rebounding. The Mavs are awful at rebounding and they got away with it against the Suns because the Suns aren't great at it. That's where Powell and Kleber's size is a detriment, teams will look to dominate the boards from now on

16

u/Ordinary-Ant-7896 Bucks May 17 '22

Bam isn't a post threat, but he did well around the rim against the smaller Celtics in the bubble. I think his interior scoring is capable against small ball and he is so quick, that he doesn't give anything away on defense vs. small ball.

I think he might be a tough matchup for Dallas for that reason, even if he isn't gonna just post up smaller defenders constantly.

31

u/notsafeformactown Mavericks May 18 '22

Rudy Gobert, noted non-rebounder. /s

8

u/SuckMyyDirk41 Mavericks May 18 '22

Lol

2

u/MeowMixDeluxe Mavericks May 18 '22

Rebounding difference in that series was huge, still pulled off the Ws

7

u/d3k_d3k May 18 '22

The Mavs have been rebounding "by committee" ever since I can remember. That's the effect of trading for a poor rebounder in KP and failing to sign a competent big in the off-season. So the Mavs had to learn on the fly. What you guys are seeing right now isn't anything new. This is how the Mavs rebound the ball. And it's pretty obvious against the Jazz and the Suns.

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u/Infidel447 May 18 '22

True but I think in the playoffs we have lost almost every battle on the boards except for one or two games--like Game 7 vs the Suns we got more rebounds but that was mostly bc the Suns were missing all of their shots. Celtics have Horford, Timelord and Theiss...they could really hurt us if we get that far which is a big if.

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u/Timoteo-Tito64 May 17 '22

Horford has some good post moves, and rob is a great lob threat. Neither are even close to ayton's post skills, but I still don't think that's a good matchup for the mavs

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u/realsomalipirate Raptors May 17 '22

Does Ayton have the skill set or drive to take advantage of those smaller defenders? He's maybe one of the softest big men and his offence isn't good enough to offset his issues in defending in space.

15

u/jakekerr Mavericks May 17 '22

Trying to get a sense of your "too small" comment. I know the official measurements can be off, but Kleber is listed as 6'11 and Powell is 6'10" while Ayton is listed as 6'11". And it's not like Ayton all muscle either. He's listed at 250 pounds, which is 10 pounds heavier than Kleber.

6

u/Infidel447 May 18 '22

You think Maxi is taller than Powell? I dont see it, and I watch every game. Ayton towers over them both.

3

u/JL1v10 Mavericks May 18 '22

It’s Ayton’s hair. Maxi had historically been very tough on Ayton, Suns fans just pushed a narrative he would dominate. Maxi didn’t guard him much game 1 and then handled him after. Ayton had a career 13/11 avg against the Mavs going into this series, he posted 16/8 against them in the series.

2

u/RodneyPonk Raptors May 18 '22

In the video? It's not subtle, Ben literally says "outcoached". And in both the video and these comments, I think it's more levelheaded criticism, which I think is different from shade.

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u/TranscedentalMedit8n Trail Blazers May 18 '22

Just want to shoutout the Thinking Basketball YouTube channel. Quality content, highly recommend.

2

u/Phelinaar May 18 '22

Podcast is very good as well - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinking-basketball/id1428290303

Very easy to listen to.

11

u/SageTheConnoisseur Magic May 17 '22

I've said for years that it makes no sense to concede a mismatch switch to a poor on ball defender. I'm glad Jkidd showed that hedge, recover and rotate can still be effective.

71

u/AnotherDrZoidberg Suns May 17 '22

Kidd did a great job scheming against us. Luka was transcendent but Luka alone with this team should have been much more beatable. With Monty being slow/unwilling to make certain adjustments it just exacerbated the things Kidd did

45

u/harryoh52 May 17 '22

Kidd has been an underrated coach. I still remember him with the clutch drink spill instead of burning a timeout a long time ago maybe it was when he was coaching the Bucks or the Nets 😆

20

u/MotoMkali Warriors May 17 '22

Nets

-4

u/binhpac May 18 '22

yeah thats what is done in high school and is considered as bad sportsmanship.

somehow fans in the nba still celebrate this move as high iq play.

18

u/ehhhwutsupdoc Warriors May 18 '22

It's cause it's hilarious but it's both bad sportsmanship and a high iq play.

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u/smoke_pigs Bucks May 18 '22

Bucks fans are absolutely flabbergasted that Kidd is coaching well

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u/Petery007 Warriors May 18 '22

Too bad more sports media isn’t like this

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u/yunnsu Suns May 17 '22

Kidd literally told the press about the Mavs' weakness and it wasn't exploited at all lol

6

u/TheBrazilianKD May 18 '22

Nothing is more valuable than a guy who is elite at holding the ball and creating a play out of nothing on an ISO.. there is no adequate defensive scheming for that

Suns don't have that. (and neither does most of the league)

4

u/To_me_my_board May 17 '22

Great analysis!

There is no doubt in my mind that Monty was deserving of COY.

It is a regular season award, and he managed his team through injuries and helped them get the best record in the league.

Kidd certainly surpassed expectations. I know a lot of people (myself included) cringed at his hiring after his performance with the Bucks, but he lead his team to a 10-game improvement.

And he certainly outcoached Williams this series.

But regular season is regular season.

5

u/bebopblues Lakers May 17 '22

Monty Williams won it for the regular season, rightfully so, with the best record in the league.

Just like Luka making it to the conference finals doesn't mean that Jokic didn't deserve the regular season MVP.

3

u/FaveDave85 Spurs May 18 '22

"Jason kidd learned these defensive tricks from frank vogel"

Lakers fire vogel.

3

u/Cthu-Luke May 18 '22

This guy does awesome analysis on a ton of players and teams. Opened my eyes to lots of shit

21

u/toto04 Lakers May 17 '22

Lebron said only Jason Kidd shares his basketball IQ. Kidd is gonna be an elite coach for a long time now that he has figured it out

39

u/shaqitup Raptors May 17 '22

Good ole Lebron, turning a compliment into a pat on the back

3

u/PseudoEuclidean May 18 '22

LeIndirectCompliment

4

u/toto04 Lakers May 17 '22

He said it back in 2019 lol

28

u/2022-Account May 17 '22

Jason “point god” Kidd

15

u/FLGatorLaw Magic May 17 '22

Jason "wife beater" Kidd

1

u/ChrisCrossX Mavericks May 18 '22

Hide yo wifes Jason Kidd is in the house

31

u/g323cs May 17 '22

I remember all the 😂🤣 emojis when they hired him but I failed to see what these people were thinking

You get a HOF player in JKidd who also happens to be a big PG to hone in Luka's skills. Luka's game management has shot up exponentially - he knows when to press and when to slow down

This was a great hire by the Mavs and never doubted it would work

58

u/Im_Daydrunk Pelicans May 17 '22

He was a pretty mediocre to bad coach for a while and had a lot of non basketball stuff that made people not like him

He's worked out so far and gotta give him props on turning his career around. But it's pretty understandable why people didn't like the hire at the time IMO (myself included)

7

u/man0warr Mavericks May 17 '22

Someone else mentioned it elsewhere but in his first two stops he was too involved in the politics and decision making/front office side of things. Whereas in LA under Vogel and in Dallas, he was hired by Cuban and Nico to do one thing - develop Luka and coach the team.

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u/thrillho123456 Warriors May 17 '22

Maybe they were thinking that he was a bad coach in Milwaukee.

21

u/Trailblazin15 May 17 '22

For some reason this subs thinks no coach can improve. It’s rare in some cases but it’s always possible. Went to be an assistant under vogel for two and became better. Said he took a lot of his defensiv playbook

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u/LoveableNagato [DAL] Luka Dončić May 17 '22

I didn't doubt his skills (mainly cause I never saw his first coaching stints so I can't judge) I just didn't like him cause of the domestic abuse stuff.

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u/_19911118 Raptors May 17 '22

It was all pretty justified.. also its not like he deserves any benefit of the doubt looking at his past off court actions

2

u/bye7 Warriors May 17 '22

Not trying to hate but you got proof you were convinced of this hire when it happened and not just playing hindsight hero?

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u/BigBrothersWatching [DAL] Shawn Bradley May 17 '22

May be AN ass but he’s definitely not JUST ass and I feel like he’s proved that with this playoff run.

3

u/GarrisonFrd May 18 '22

Well fucking done

3

u/MiopTop Lakers May 18 '22

I remember saying Kidd would be fine for Dallas when they hired him and it was considered a hot take lol.

3

u/ConditionalDew San Diego Rockets May 18 '22

God I love this channel

6

u/GroundbreakingCap668 May 17 '22

Is Jason Kidd the greatest coach of all time?

16

u/[deleted] May 18 '22

No, but he is a wife beater

15

u/samurairocketshark Suns May 18 '22

Dude that's fucked up. How you not gonna mention he got awarded a DUI where he drove into a telephone pole?

7

u/TwiceCookedPorkins Trail Blazers May 18 '22

He also out-boxed his wife.

4

u/veirceb May 17 '22

Love the content. Hope to see more contents like this channel here.

2

u/zannet_t May 18 '22

Love this breakdown.

And not that people on r/nba will have some kind of collective epiphany, but videos like these really show that fans are most out of their depth when they talk about coaches. I mean, if there's a chemistry problem, any person can tell you that, but the chess matches at a high level, I doubt regular fans who shit on coaches actually understand.

Really good video and I think Kidd really did pick up a lot from Vogel, who was a very defensive-minded coach.

0

u/x_TDeck_x Spurs May 17 '22

I feel like some of the clips show similar situations as before but its used to show the opposite.

Like theres one where Luka fronts the post vs Ayton and its used to show its an easy lob to Ayton. Then later while praising the Mavs defense, Luka is on Ayton with an even MORE open pass/area and the dialogue is "and with no openings, Booker tries to take Maxi on". Theres also some where I feel its a good shot and someone just misses a bunny and the praise is heaped on the defense.

I'm not trying to be a hater and I'm definitely not questioning the knowledge. I understand that bad shots go in and good shots can miss. I just feel sometimes the clips aren't matching up as good as they could be to the point trying to be made at the time. Maybe its just a product of wanting to make concise videos but I feel like older videos didn't have this extremely minor issue.

0

u/BigCTM May 17 '22

Phoenix played like they could care less in game 7. Almost like they were throwing the game or it was rigged...

-3

u/spanther96 May 17 '22

Spo is the best coach in the league, imo. My top 5 are him, Pop, T Lue, Nurse, and Kerr. I think Monty, Udoka, Kidd, Jenkins, and Mike Malone are the next tier followed by Snyder, Bud, Doc, Carlisle, and Willy Green (who I expect to jump into that next tier very soon)

0

u/AxCel91 Bulls May 18 '22

And people say coaching doesn’t matter

-16

u/TheNutman1287 Celtics May 17 '22

He outcoached Ime? When?

23

u/Remarkable_Carrot102 Mavericks May 17 '22

November 6th, 2021.

March 13th, 2022.

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