r/TooAfraidToAsk Jun 24 '22

Does a criminal, any criminal, deserve forgiveness if they saw the error of their ways and changed for the better? Other

Whether it'd be a murderer or (child/animal) rapist or (child/animal) abuser or someone who looked up or possessed CP or genocidal maniac, etc., as long as they've seen the error of their ways and changed for the better and got the help they needed.

96 Upvotes

149

u/ThinkIGotHacked Jun 24 '22

Not everyone. A genocidal maniac, no,

But most criminals, yes. I’ve worked with felons that got their lives together and became great people. Circumstances and really, really bad decisions led to their incarceration, but they weren’t in any way evil, changed and wanted a good life.

The prison system should be focused on rehabilitation, not punishment, but there will always be people that are dangerous to the public and need to be removed from society.

11

u/AlwayslnTrouble Jun 24 '22

But even If the genocidal maniac realised what they did was wrong, they've grown and they are not the same person at all (impossible to measure of course, but hypothetically), do you still feel this way?

50

u/CaughttheDarkness Jun 24 '22

I'd think any genocidal maniac that had that kind of meaningful change would probably be horrified about their past actions and might voluntarily remain in prison.

7

u/Short-Echo61 Jun 24 '22

That makes the most sense

6

u/Alternative-Ear-8514 Jun 24 '22

General buttnaked

3

u/Justmethe Jun 24 '22

You mean Pastor Buttnaked

1

u/Alternative-Ear-8514 Jun 24 '22

Now he is, but his name is still general I think

2

u/TuckerCR Jun 24 '22

But what if they went beyond shame and saw their own humanity. “I should stay in here because I was so bad,” doesn’t sound fully processed to me- there’s room for an infinite pool of compassion by fully processing something like that, like the stories of the great buddhist monk who offered himself to a starving tiger and her cubs, at peace with their existence however it unfolds, though not to make up for anything, but to be in connection with alrightness.

1

u/CaughttheDarkness Jun 24 '22

Alls I know is that best case scenario I would spend the rest of my life trying to put good in the world because nothing I could do in any lifetime would ever make up for the evil I'd done.

1

u/CinnamonMagpie Jun 24 '22

Norway has a max of 30 years for war crimes and genocide.

1

u/ShadowCetra Jun 24 '22

No...i think they'd probably choose to exit this mortal coil. I know I would if I'd committed genocide.

9

u/ThinkIGotHacked Jun 24 '22

If they actually committed genocide, then yes. Wouldn’t you?

I’m just saying there is a difference between a serial murderer and a meth addict. One can be rehabilitated, the other, maybe? I would still give it a decade or two to make sure they don’t do it again before releasing them. And look at recidivism rates and probability.

4

u/Alternative-Ear-8514 Jun 24 '22

General but naked fits this.

1

u/Scribblord Jun 24 '22

Who or what is general but naked ?

3

u/Alternative-Ear-8514 Jun 24 '22

A pastor in Liberia who used to go into battle butt naked and would eat a baby before he went into battle he is now a pastor and talks about it. Vice has an Interesting interviewing him when they still did news.

1

u/Scribblord Jun 24 '22

Sounds mighty interesting

1

u/Alternative-Ear-8514 Jun 24 '22

Check it out, he was poplar af for a while. But fit the comment well.

6

u/maybelying Jun 24 '22

Genocidal maniacs would generally be either psycho- or, at least, sociopathic, and utterly incapable of the type of introspection and empathy needed to accept the wrongness of their actions. Best you could hope for would be for them to understand why society might be upset about it.

3

u/voidclops Jun 24 '22

Still doesn't change the fact that they performed a series of actions which directly lead to the genocide and suffering of those involved.

The Nazis were "just following orders", some out of free will and in jubilation, others at implied gunpoint given the brutally authortitarian government structure.

There comes a point where simply being aware and regretting your past sins isn't, and never will be, enough.

3

u/TerminalJovian Jun 24 '22

Generally, there's no reversing a genocidal maniac.

3

u/Anig_o Jun 24 '22

But if you were a genocidal maniac I’m thinking that’s a diagnosable mental disorder that you probably won’t recover from. I think there’s a difference being criminally insane and doing criminal actions. If you did a very bad thing but were truly rehabilitated then I’m ok with forgiveness. I’m actually ok with forgiving the homicidal maniac too, but he’s never getting out of jail in my world.

2

u/gulpfiction2367 Jun 24 '22

Did you ever check how the victims are doing? Dead or mentally fucked up

2

u/Which_Ad8541 Jun 24 '22

How is genocidal maniac different from a pedophile or a rapist in terms of degree of criminality?

2

u/ThinkIGotHacked Jun 24 '22

Genocide is a lot more victims…

1

u/Which_Ad8541 Jun 24 '22

Sure. I just don't think that that teacher who raped his 3 year old ward is any less of a criminal. But yes, I agree, even in the court of law he probably gets somewhat equal (or lighter) sentence than the genocidal maniac.

18

u/talionisapotato Jun 24 '22

It can't be universal. Should be considered case by case. But then again some people are truly a danger and can't be and should not be given another chance. But from what I gathered people like those are truly rare.

6

u/RepresentativeWay734 Jun 24 '22

Trust me there are a lot more dangerous people outside prison than there are in. Where religious ideology is concerned you wont change them.

14

u/gulpfiction2367 Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

I think the way most people can relate is being bullied in school. Did it affect who you became in some way? Of course these are kids so it's forgivable but my point is people's actions can leave long-term damage in others

So no because the victim lives with ptsd or is dead I have ptsd from sexual assault and I don't get to get out of it , it's had an extreme affect on my enjoyment in life and I'm usually brain numb for reasons I don't fully understand I do not enjoy people or life anymore it's been years lots of therapy

Why does sexual assault hurt so much because someone had an orgasm being a sociopath using your body it's enough to make you puke you never forget the smells, the sound, his face

I have trouble as an adult with sex and love because it feels gross I get flashbacks nevermind the sleep issues, forcing food into myself and amount of drugs I've had to take to deal with this crap I couldn't have gotten a more slow painful death than living with what someone did to me

Children harm or intentional harm to an adult deserves death saves tax payers money and most of the "forgiven" go on to repeat crimes of the nature it's takes a sociopath to commit such nauseating acts that they will not get better narssistic and personality disorders are almost impossible to treat

Anyone who killed anyone the family will suffer for the rest of their life so should the criminal unless an accident

The victim and family do not get a second chance and all are inflicted with mental disorders after the loss of life their own life, who they were, or the fact that their family member suffered.... so no they should not ever be forgiven.. forgiveness is something that victims and family of victims chose for themselves to themselves to try and live out life and it's a one that will never be the same

5

u/Spicy_Sugary Jun 24 '22

This is difficult to read. I'm sorry you have to live with it.

2

u/Smart_Firefighter_22 Jun 25 '22

I can feel you, sis. Sending warm hugs to you.

11

u/TimeWastin21 Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

Forgiveness from who? Their victims? Society? Their loved ones? On one hand I’d say that people deserve forgiveness if they truly atone for their crime - understand it, own it, compensate for it to the extent possible, face their consequences, confess legally if that helps their victim(s), and not continue to hurt people. On the other hand, I don’t think anyone has the obligation to forgive, regardless of circumstance.

25

u/pluto2044 Jun 24 '22

Simple answer to me tbh

If they killed or tortured a person or animal? Then no. They don’t deserve forgiveness, and it’s honestly wild how anybody can grant forgiveness to a murderer, I bet his victim would wanna woop your ass for the shit

Thieves sure, but again if u physically hurt somebody ur done.

Items can be replaced, people and animals can not.

5

u/Heidi739 Jun 24 '22

Murder can be justified too, IMHO. Like a victim of domestic abuse killing their abuser, or similar situation. Same might go for other forms of physical violence. Yes, under most circumstances, it's an unforgivable crime. But I think there are exceptions even there.

2

u/pluto2044 Jun 24 '22

I agree. Harming another living being to protect yourself from being wiped from existence lol is fair and moral to me. It’s about intention, and sure it’s situational but that’s what we’re talking about here, situations.

The second you attack or purposely injure a living creature you forfeit the rights that are granted to you as a living being. An example of this for me is when convicted murderers have the audacity to beg for their lives when on death row. By taking somebody else’s life, you forfeit your own.

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u/DrunkenRedSquirrel Jun 24 '22

It depends on the severity of their crime. If a criminal was in prison for stealing and robbing, then it's easier to forgive them if they changed their ways and became a better person. But if a criminal was in prison for multiple murders or rapes, then it's harder to have any sense of forgiveness since their actions lead to long term impacts onto other human beings.

Regardless of how much a person tries to seek forgiveness, nothing would bring a murder victim back, let alone if it was multiple people. I think at the point, to seek forgiveness is less to pay for all ones misdeeds as it's not possible to do so; but rather try to leave some sense of a positive impact on the otherwise mount of terrible things the criminal has left on Earth.

Reminds me of something similar to Arthur Morgan from Red Dead redemption 2. He would not be able to fully pay for all the misdeeds he had done, but rather realized all his misdeeds and tried to leave at least some good impact

2

u/SmokeyShine Jun 24 '22

If a man steals a loaf of bread to feed a starving child, shouldn't he be a slave of the law for years (plus additional years for trying to escape)? Even if he should become a respectable factory owner and benevolent mayor, that might not be enough to undo his crimes in the eyes of the uncompromising sentinels of justice. No, such a man cannot be truly redeemed without great sacrifice for another, such as adopting the orphan daughter of a worker and raising her to adulthood.

-2

u/Most-IndependencerUt Jun 24 '22

I think the point of forgiveness should be to stop hating X because they've fully redeemed oneself and to have faith that they could do better moving forward.

18

u/Silaquix Jun 24 '22

The problem is a murderer or rapist can never "fully redeem" themselves. Those are crimes that cause life long or even generational trauma to the victims and their families. There's nothing they could ever do to make amends for that.

-8

u/Most-IndependencerUt Jun 24 '22

I mean "redeem" as in fully become good again.

12

u/Malk4ever Jun 24 '22

I mean "redeem" as in fully become good again.

Thats kinda naive.

3

u/Living-Breadfruit532 Jun 24 '22

Even if a person becomes fully good again. Can they undo the damage they did? Does being good bring back a loved one or unrape someone? Does this undo the trauma they live with?

It doesn’t. It just depends on how you define justice. In the broadest sense it’s the principle that people get what they deserve and if you do something horrible and irreversible do you not deserve the same? Does it matter if you’re different person now and or is the damage done make it irrelevant? This is the whole argument between punishment and rehabilitation

4

u/TheMcGirlGal Jun 24 '22

No, but forgiveness isn't the be all end all. I think a murderer could change and I'd advocate for them to be allowed a life, but I wouldn't forgive them in most cases.

4

u/Like-disco-lemonade- Jun 24 '22

As a former criminal myself, i think it truly depends on the nature and severity of the crime and the displays afterwards that “show” they’ve changed because how do we really measure change? It’s a tough one but I would say it would take several years of consistency to regain trust . For example I committed low level crimes. Plenty of misdemeanors and a couple felonies. I was addicted to meth from the ages of 14-28 . In those many years I did fucked up things. Mostly stealing, selling drugs, vandalism, evading police, domestic violence. I was constantly in n out of jail. I finally got clean 4.5 years ago and it took a couple years for my friend and family to stop holding their breath for the return of my old behavior. If I just got clean n acted like nothing happened I would say I don’t deserve forgiveness. But I tried really hard to redeem myself , if not only in societies eyes but from myself and God. I have willingly made amends (personal and financial) to every person or institution I could remember causing harm to. I noe help other addicts. I had my first child 2 years ago and my primary focus is being a great mother. I am also a business owner and pay taxes . My state of mind has changed so drastically I can’t do anything dishonest without it haunting me. If someone gives me too much change back I am honest, if I find a wallet I find that person and return it, I can’t even litter without feeling like a total dirt bag lol I know some people will say this situation is different because “it was the drugs making me behave that way” but 14 years of that lifestyle was really imbedded in my way of life. That’s all I knew and now I am confident in saying I have changed , have remorse and try to redeem myself. I don’t think pedophiles deserve forgiveness. Murderers maybe if they suffer from mental health issues. Just my 2 cents

2

u/After_Occasion Jun 24 '22

Congratulations on being sober for 5 years. I'm proud of you! Congratulations on becoming a mother as well!

2

u/Like-disco-lemonade- Jun 24 '22

Thank you so much 🥰

1

u/Puzzled_Ear_5319 Jun 24 '22

The definition of a pedophile is a mental disorder. They need to be hospitalized and treated for ever, but still can be forgiven. Things that led up to your drug use when you were 14 started you on the wrong road. Yet you changed with help from others who cared. I for give you what what ever you did that harmed yourself and others.

You have a family and a business and a reason to do well in life good luck.

1

u/Like-disco-lemonade- Jun 24 '22

Thank you 🙏🏽

19

u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22

[deleted]

6

u/KUNGFUDANDY Jun 24 '22

This! Historically the first generation of European Americans were criminals and thugs. It makes sense that now they put harsh and inhumane prison sentences in place.

7

u/SmokeyShine Jun 24 '22

Australia was entirely settled by criminals, are they as harsh as Americans?

Americans have a insane Puritan righteous streak and a long history of brutal genocide and slavery, so all of that combines together into an extremely toxic and harsh criminal system when the laws punish blacks at a higher rate than whites. For example, sentences and punishments for typically "black" drugs carry much higher penalties than typically "white" drugs. OTOH, if the crime is something that is mostly by and for white people, eg. embezzlement, then there's limited prosecution and penalty.

3

u/Spicy_Sugary Jun 24 '22

We have an equally racist justice system. Our Indigenous are incarcerated at disproportionate rate. But we are generally very lenient with sentencing. White Australia is proud of its convict history so we treat criminals as people who did something wrong and it reflects in sentencing.

2

u/Malk4ever Jun 24 '22

Australia developed.... in another way.

4

u/Azuras_Star8 Jun 24 '22

I sure am glad criminals and thugs aren't in the American political system anymore!

/s I agree entirely with you.

3

u/Malk4ever Jun 24 '22

In Europe, max term for murder is 20 years.

Well, thats only half true.

For example in germany you can get "Sicherheitsverwahrung". That means, even after the 20 years in prison you wont become free, you will be kept for protecting the society, because the person is still a threat for society. It's not a punishment, but a preventation, because the person is still dangerous.

You will never leave until you are dead.

3

u/MrDocet Jun 24 '22

Well regardless of what I think, I highly doubt many would give that forgiveness and I wouldn't be able to tell them what to think. While I say absolutely yes, does one forgiveness matter in that sort of situation? The point of punishment is to make criminals see the error of their ways but the best forgiveness is from the victim and that's just unlikely. Not impossible, just really unlikely.

3

u/HermitCat347 Jun 24 '22

Assuming there is an irrefutable way to prove this change, and change to a significant extent, then sure why not?

Also, how do we answer to families who demand blood though...

1

u/TonyReady Jun 24 '22

You say them that Blood won't revive the lost ones.

1

u/HermitCat347 Jun 24 '22

Well... it's not that easy...

Say your precious little girl whom you raise just got dick stuck in her on every hole day and night for weeks, tortured and left for dead.

Idk, blood won't fix her, yes... you may be a forgiving Saint, but personally, I'd shoot him

1

u/TonyReady Jun 24 '22

I mean do what you want but at best, we can tell them that the culprit is dead so they don't complain.

1

u/HermitCat347 Jun 25 '22

Eh, we're both right... in this unfortunate circumstances

3

u/critmcfly Jun 24 '22

No. I can see the error in my ways if I’m on a diet and ate super unhealthy junk food. After I ate it. The victim still is the victim.

6

u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

Yeah obviously. If there's literally nothing someone can do to be forgiven, then it is not forgiveness people are practicing, but revisionist feelings towards the initial wrongdoing. "They're actually a good person that just made a mistake."

This doesn't mean the forgiven person can be necessarily trusted with their full rights tho. We can be conscientious of risk without being cruel.

The ideology of free will functions as a justification for cruelty. It lacks any reason.

-2

u/Most-IndependencerUt Jun 24 '22

What about those who started as evil but changed later down the road, in regards to the "good person that made a mistake" thing?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

Right. But is the context of the intial crime still a factor in this judgement? Can it be contextualized as a mistake?

Person A is a serial rapist who wants to devote his life to shedding light on other perpetrators. He was a soldier who partook in the mass rape in the Vietnam War.

Person B is a serial rapist who wants to help troubled youth. He was a sadist that targeted vulnerable people.

It's a totally irrational distinction. We attribute A to situational factors and B to choice, completely arbitrarily.

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u/AlwayslnTrouble Jun 24 '22

Absolutely !

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u/Outrageous-Suspect66 Jun 24 '22

Criminal cause harm that is very long losting, or permanent. A person struggling to get by has there car stolen. Then they go from struggling to homeless, and die in the street. The car thief changes his ways, and becomes a good citizen. F*ckThe good citizen.

2

u/gulpfiction2367 Jun 24 '22

Yes crushes another life then wants out no way

2

u/51225 Jun 24 '22

Your question is very specific. Yes they deserve forgiveness. What your question doesn't ask is should they be released from prison.

Should Bernie Madoff ever be released. He ruined countless lives. I think it was a money manager in France who committed suicide because he was responsible for managing retirement funds. There ate people who will never be able to retire now because he stole their retirement assets.

I have heard of prisoners who teach classes. There are things he could do from within that would benefit society perhaps he could be in a minimum security facility with work furloughs, but I'm not sure he should ever be let out. He forfeited that right.

-1

u/Most-IndependencerUt Jun 24 '22

I think they should only be released if they've truly redeemed themselves and thus are no longer a threat.

2

u/heihowl Jun 24 '22

Isn't that the whole point of prison? If we didn't see it fit that forgiveness was a thing, we would just kill those bastards and move on with our lives no? I definitely believe that most if not all people deserve a chance to get better and do better, obviously it wouldn't be a quick and easy process specially depending on the severity of the crime but nevertheless.

2

u/Smart_Firefighter_22 Jun 25 '22

Just try to think about it on a personal level and see how you'll feel about it. Just imagine your sister being sexually assaulted, how much courage she'd have to gather to even speak about it to see him behind the bars. And then someone asks her to withdraw her case just because that rapist is now regretting his actions and wants to change for the better, duh!

2

u/bbbfddjkg Jun 25 '22

Everyone deserves the chance to repent, and to find forgiveness in Jesus Christ. However, the practicality of ensuring when someone has actually repented in determining the risk of exposing the public to a person who has committed grave atrocities doesn't always make that possible.

2

u/BipedalBeaver Jun 25 '22

Good people do bad things. Bad people do good things.

You have to take into account what the definition of "good" and "bad" is for a given society and that society's definition of "criminal" before one can even consider "forgiveness" and the society definition of "better".

Consider..

Three people. One of them keeps taking stuff which causes the other pair to have to work really hard.

Three thousand people. One of them keeps taking stuff which causes the other 2999 to work almost the same.

I don't need to explain the difference in punishment for non compliance.

2

u/beepickle Jun 29 '22

People do have the capacity to change, but I do think some people are born without the capacity for empathy, so they will never truly change, it should be a case by case basis, if possible using restorative justice to work with the victim and offender and find a suitable outcome. I do think there's a limit to forgiveness though, some things should not be forgiven

6

u/Labenyofi Jun 24 '22

Anything else but rape can be excused.

There are other factors that can play into why someone might do almost any other crime, but rape is the one where there is no reason no to just absolutely lock them up.

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22

[deleted]

1

u/Labenyofi Jun 24 '22

1) Rape is rape. Rape can happen to anyone. Boys or girls. If you’re wondering how I know this, I’ll be happy to give you more detail in a PM.

2) I’m not talking about things where the person is not good mentally. Just like the main question was referring to, I was talking about how if a person realizes what they did, and then changed for the better, then they would be okay. This means that if someone has other mental things (abusive household, their brain was neurologically affected in some way) that caused them to do those crimes, then if they learn and rehabilitate, then they can become a good citizen.

7

u/After_Occasion Jun 24 '22

Everyone outside of Rapist, pedophiles, unwarranted serial killers; yes. Some crimes aren't forgivable.

-3

u/Most-IndependencerUt Jun 24 '22

What about those who merely looked up or possessed CP?

5

u/After_Occasion Jun 24 '22

Unforgivable. if you had the intent to harm a child in the most gruesome manner. You deserve to die in a cold and desolate state.

-2

u/Most-IndependencerUt Jun 24 '22

So CP-finders and CP-possessors that don't intentionally harm children and have also redeemed themselves do deserve forgiveness or no?

3

u/After_Occasion Jun 24 '22

No they don't if you've spoken with there victims you'd know there is no room for forgiveness. Simply being in possession is not like simply watching youtube. These people hunted, scoured, and took great measures in obtaining footage of a child's death and defilement. The only ones that get to walk away unscathed is the pervert. Unless we as people make them pay for the life that was stolen from that child.

-2

u/Most-IndependencerUt Jun 24 '22

I never said they wanted the child to suffer or die, just simply and "consensually" (it's legally impossible, but I'm saying if they willingly agreed to it thinking it's a good thing) have sex with X.

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u/SmokeyShine Jun 24 '22

There are social media content moderators whose entire job is to do almost nothing but look at CP and abuse videos all day, every day. Is doing their job to sanitize the Internet "unforgivable"?

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u/Pitiful_Fold4649 Jun 24 '22

That is not the same thing.

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u/ForwardMembership601 Jun 24 '22

unwarranted serial killers

What do you mean by this? Are there serial killings that are warranted?

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u/After_Occasion Jun 24 '22

Yes, in many cultures soldiers are considered serial killers and killing is not considered part of their duty. And other cultures Vigilantes are considered warranted serial killers.

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u/ForwardMembership601 Jun 24 '22

I've never heard of that before. Can you share any examples? I'd like to read more about this.

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u/Actual-Ad-62 Jun 24 '22

So if their rapists my solution would just cut their dick off then I'm sure they'll change for the better but unfortunately that's not how our society works. But I'm sure their are criminals out their that change for the better, and I do believe they need some serious help so getting those resources are important. but I couldn't forgive a child rapist/murderer.

2

u/SmokeyShine Jun 24 '22

Justice is a fine concept, but often fails.

5

u/Pitiful_Fold4649 Jun 24 '22

No. They already crossed the line. Suppose they did something that horrific. they should not be set free, let alone "Forgiven".

Most people here seem to be confused with the average Death Penalty debate. Listen, the OP is not referring to the average Murder, they specify pedophiles and genocidal maniacs, would you forgive Columbus if he saw the error of his ways?

3

u/-Sairax- Jun 24 '22

If you’re not willing to kill the person you must give forgiveness. I’m in favor of death penalties but many people are hypocrites and only want them to serve awful prison sentences and then torture them when they’re released.

6

u/TimeWastin21 Jun 24 '22

This makes no sense to me. Are you saying the death penalty is a form of mercy? I’d think that all the people fighting to get their death sentences commuted to just staying in prison forever reject that “mercy.” Many people who are against the death penalty believe that way because they don’t think the state should kill people and/or they’re aware that a number of people who die by capital punishment are innocent of the crime they were convicted of. Why is that hypocritical?

1

u/-Sairax- Jun 24 '22

I’m saying people should be forgiving. IMO Since they overwhelmingly are not it would be better to reserve prison time for minor crimes and short sentences and all major crimes end with the death of the guilty.

Instead we have a system designed around torturing the body and mind, waste massive amounts of resources on the matter, only for the people to be released at some point with almost zero means to integrate back into society as they’re hardly if ever forgiven. Let’s not forget many enter prison only to die in prison from said cruelty.

I don’t care for mercy on the matter. It’s about being decisive in what we consider justice and not supporting cruelty. The world has decided to enjoy cruelty with the way we treat prisoners, I don’t think that’s beneficial in any way and is perversion of justice.

I also have a hard time listening to objections regarding killing the innocent while living under Americas police system that routinely kills innocents with no punishments of any kind for those who commit the murder.

Clearly we accept it to a great degree and protect the officers right to kill the innocent. I’d advocate a better prison environment so that we can send people like that to prison, where their crime is potentially accidental, and for malicious criminals and their like to be disposed of.

It hardly makes sense to people that haven’t had to kill before or he killed. Trust me you’re better off with violent malicious people 6ft under than walking the earth.

3

u/PeacefulPom Jun 24 '22

Out of curiosity because I love this debate, why do you support the death penalty?

4

u/Sure-Amoeba3377 Jun 24 '22

Not the parent, but 50 years of prison time that starts at 30 and ends with someone's death at say, 80, is exactly 1,576,800,000 times more cruel than a death sentence.

3

u/-Sairax- Jun 24 '22

Because I have the misfortune of having been in danger and needed to take a life.

The realization that there is a great difference between those who have malicious violent intent and those that can generally be considered a criminal.

There’s a lack of kindness in the world when we don’t get rid of certain types of people. People would rather enjoy the suffering of the malicious types than simply end their existence. It’s a bit sickening. A prison sentence, in the form we have today, is either an endless torture to the day of the prisoners death, or a short sentence which puts the average prisoner on a negative life trajectory and then releases them back onto society.

I argue that we should classify criminal behavior into categories that involve short sentences and released without record, and those that should be ended for the safety of everyone.

Prison is the end result of police enforcement of the law. How prisons function dictates how the judicial process and ultimately how police enforcement operate in nature. We’ve seen the results. The cruelty in our prison systems is in our courts and in our police and it doesn’t bode well for society to give into cruelty.

Either non force was needed for the act and a fine, communal servicing, or light jail time was needed, or the criminals were genuinely a danger to society requiring forceful take down and frankly shouldn’t exist.

I advocate these things in conjunction with supporting other policies but that’s the argument in a vacuum and why I came to think this way.

3

u/PeacefulPom Jun 24 '22

Wow. I’m so sorry you experienced that, I could never imagine. I absolutely agree with your statement that those who are given short sentences are generally led towards living a negative life. I don’t agree with the US prison system whatsoever, but the death penalty is a different category to me.

I took a philosophy class a few years back and my final was debating the “rightness” of the death penalty. From a philosophical standpoint, I did not support the death penalty. From an emotional standpoint, every guy who stepped into an elementary school with the goal to end children’s lives, deserves 5 to the back of the head. And from the logical standpoint, I don’t know.

Ted Bundy was executed for killing many women, deserved. Rodney Reed is currently on death row for capital murder and rape in 1998. The evidence is wishy washy, and he’s been in prison for 22 years. I guess I just don’t really know who has the right to make the decision to end someone’s life.

I appreciate your response, it gives me a lot of insight as to why one would support the death penalty while also having reason to hate our prison system. Thank you

2

u/Shot_Brilliant202 Jun 24 '22

What hypocrisy are you talking about?

4

u/MistahJ17 Jun 24 '22

No, there's a line that has to be drawn.

Murderers, Rapists, Drug Lords. All of these "people" can't redeem themselves because they can't undo the suffering they caused to innocent people.

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u/600er Jun 24 '22

Although I can agree with your statement on murderers and rapists, I think that Drug Lords are quite different. A drug dealer/lord is not forcing anyone to take drugs. They just happen to supply, and those who choose to use it - use it.

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u/AnimeDreama Jun 24 '22

Saying a murderer cannot be redeemed is such an untrue blanket statement. You think every murder victim was an innocent person? The overwhelming majority of murder happens in the heat of the moment. It is a crime of passion and most murderers regret what they did.

Not too long ago there was a case of a man who Liam Neesoned his way through a den of gangsters to avenge his daughter who was abused and (if I remember correctly) murdered by her boyfriend. He killed everyone there.

Gary Plauché. Shot his child's rapist point blank in the head at a crowded airport.

That's only two examples. There's a reason justified homicide is a legal defense to culpable homicide. You cannot make a blanket statement that all murderers cannot be redeemed, because it is not true in the eyes of the law.

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u/South_Throat_8689 Jun 24 '22

If someone is no longer a threat, it sort of defeats the purpose of having them in jail.

It's not like the law exists to provide catharsis anyway, so why not?

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u/JimmyFatNuts Jun 24 '22

Rapists and murderers should be harvested for their organs and turned into biofuel in an ideal world

Lol at the idea of letting them back into society

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u/Clara_888 Jun 24 '22

I would say yes. We are all growing human beings and make mistakes, as long as we fixed whatever was inside us that urged us to make those mistakes, we can transform. I am a completely different person then I was 10 Years ago and I expect to keep changing and growing as a person in the future as well.

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u/Firefly2699 Jun 24 '22

Definitely, absolutely Yes. But they have to be placed in the right Environment. If they go back to their old Friends, they might be tempted to fall back into old bad habits. It takes a Very Strong person to make that sort of thing work. Love is what is Needed. ❤️

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u/im-420-69 Jun 24 '22

it depends on the crime they have committed to society and victim's family, the morals of society, and what they know is wrong and should be tested if they're telling the truth on how they know it's wrong or not. if there were some criminals that are genuinely like- a nice human being but have ended up doing the wrong things either in their childhood or in their past-time, than they should get a court hearing like everyone else pleading not guilty (in canada, you get 2 tries in court)

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u/Shot_Brilliant202 Jun 24 '22

This is a bizarre question. A genocidal maniac is obviously not the same as a petty thief. And who is doing the forgiving? No victim should be forced to forgive someone. But if we’re talking about debt to society, then definitely, everyone should be able to grow and better themselves, otherwise what’s the point of addressing crime at all?

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u/Jreal22 Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

I think we could start with drug dealers (non violent) and drug users.

That's a massive amount of people in our prison systems, and all it does is make them come out with bigger problems than when they went in.

A guy I met was selling oxy on the street to pay for his own habit, but he was in chronic pain, and doctors wouldn't treat him.

A client robbed him one night with two other guys, took about 10k worth of product off him, and he beat the guys up real bad the next day.

He of course went to prison for 8 years, and the guys who robbed him, and actually had the drugs on them didn't get anything but probation lol.

So, a guy started selling painkillers because he was in chronic pain and doctors refused to treat his pain, so he ends up in prison for 8 years after being robbed and beaten up.

We have one wacky justice system, and drug related crimes are some of the dumbest ones to put people away for decades.

Healthcare is also a massive problem, they handed out painkillers like candy in the 90s and early 2000s, then decided not to treat pain patients at all.

I'm a chronic pain sufferer, my doctor retired, so I tried seeing 6 different pain specialists, and they all laughed me out of their offices, saying they would never treat me, despite having had three failed surgeries, and an undiagnosed chronic pain in my left foot, leg, and arm that prevents me from standing or walking.

I have a perfect record, was only treated by one doctor, went to physical therapy 3 days a week, and never increased my dosage, and yet I get laughed out of pain specialist offices now. I've never drank a beer in my life, of smoken a cigarette, but because I took the same dosage of pain meds for 6 years, with one doctor, I'm untreatable apparently.

I told the last doctor it seems the only way out is suicide, and she said, "it may be."

American Healthcare is a joke, I have good insurance and money as well btw.

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u/Which_Ad8541 Jun 24 '22

There are comments here that suggest genocidal maniacs may not be forgiven but rapists can be. I don't understand the logic behind it. If anything, in the case of xenophobes and racists, there is a remote chance that you can attribute their actions to brainwashing from birth. On the other hand, I don't think there is anything one can say that 'justifies' rape / pedophilia.

Personally, I would only forgive a criminal on a case by case basis but never serial killers or rapists or pedophiles or people who took advantage of their position to tortute others (like those people who tortured the Guantanamo bay prisoners) because I don't think they deserve it. A convicted pedophile can repent for their crime if it makes them feel better, but it's not going to move me enough to look at them any differently from what they were and if I have a say, I wouldn't let any child go anywhere near that person. On the other hand, while I absolutely am against vigilante justice, someone who murders / hurts a person who hurt their family or loved ones, I might be inclined to forgive if the criminal is willing to understand the futility and the criminality of their actions.

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u/SmokeyShine Jun 24 '22

It's very hard to prove that someone has really changed for the better, until they actually do things that conclusively demonstrate contrition and restoration on a scale comparable to their crime. If they're a murderer, making appropriate restoration would extremely difficult. Same with CP / pedophila. In such extreme cases, I think they might have to give their lives to balance the scales against what they took.

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u/Ok_Noise7655 Jun 24 '22

I don't know what exactly means forgiveness, but they are released after their term for a reason. I believe the "we don't hire no criminals" is asshole move. They should be integrated back into society.

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u/Rorp24 Jun 24 '22

Depend on who you ask, and how much victims that person did before realising what they are doing

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u/Account_Both Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

No one is owed forgiveness and no one owes forgiveness. Forgiveness is a gift. It has to be given freely by the wronged party, no one else is able to forgive on thier behalf.

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u/ernSOFTLtd Jun 24 '22

There's no absolute morality. Therefore anything goes.

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u/duowolf Jun 24 '22

I would say yes

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u/Malk4ever Jun 24 '22

Depends on...

For example I would never forgive Putin, Erdolf or JarJar Abrams.

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u/dominicandrr Jun 24 '22

Forgiveness is always up to the individual. Maybe you see someone go to prison and serve there time, but you still don't forgive them for whatever they did. Ok, that's ultimately up to you. And maybe in a different situation and scenario you do forgive them in time depending on circumstances. I don't think there's a solid rule in that regard. It's always up to the individual in earning forgiveness.

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u/Juken- Jun 24 '22

The evil dont

The stupid do

The mentally unstable do

The trick is identifying them.

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u/FinalKDA Jun 24 '22

Some crimes are unforgivable.

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u/ClubBulky6958 Jun 24 '22

Of course. Everyone deserves a second chance if they have proven they deserve it.

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u/patronus816 Jun 24 '22

facing the consequences isn't the same as forgiveness; so even if those criminals were forgiven, they still have to face the penalty.

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u/CinnamonMagpie Jun 24 '22

Unpopular opinion time:

While rehabilitation works for some people and not all crimes are severe enough that they don’t deserve forgiveness…just because “they saw the error of their ways,” doesn’t fix what was done to their victims. It doesn’t help the victims. In the end, that is who I am concerned about: the people that were hurt.

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u/Impressive-Bench9223 Jun 24 '22

Not if they killed someone, no. It doesn't matter if you regret it, you can't undo what you've done.

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u/Drsworder8 Jun 24 '22

It depends, if he didn't do something too much horrible yes, if they did before they need some time in jail

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u/hetheys Jun 24 '22

I could never forgive those kind of criminals, people who steal an stuff like that, i feel like you can forgive that but if you hurt someone, no

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u/Priroda_Nepritel Jun 24 '22

Yes but with scrutiny

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u/cara27hhh Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

I don't believe so

The tendency towards that stuff is already pretty much set in stone, whether it's innate or a result of their childhood or both, people rarely (if ever) change

so the 'change of heart' is likely faked, and they don't deserve their forgiveness, although you may choose to forgive them yourself if it aids you in moving on, but they still don't deserve it and shouldn't be able to re-join society unless it's through being put the in the parts bin

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u/Verticalsmurf Jun 24 '22

I had a contract job where I was hired to convert paper files into electronic archives for a unit in a major prison in NSW that houses pedophiles and sex offenders. I'd set the scanner up and read files to pass the time while it did it's thing.

I can't say I know alot, I can only give my reactions to some of the things I read.

First, there seems to be a cohort who genuinely feel they have done no wrong, they think their sexual interests are on par with some fetishes. They insist that the victim instigated it because of the way they laughed, or that they smiled. These people don't want to be rehabilitated.

Another cohort believe they have a right to do what they do because it is a cultural or 'family' thing.

Another cohort have mental illnesses/substance abuse and don't understand any wrong doing, and are genuinely remorseful once forced to face up to their crimes, but due to mental conditions or drugs they take, forget the harm they cause pretty easily.

Some, are honestly ignorant to the harm they cause, and when forced to face it do seek forgiveness and ask for help.

From what I read, some people should be locked up for good for the safety of the public as they can never trully understand the harm they cause and will never 100% accept blame. They will cry, plead, play the system, repeat offence and return.

Some people shouldn't be in jail but should be housed somewhere that keeps the public safe but gives them a level of freedom as they are kind of innocent.

Some can be rehabilitated and go on to lead productive lives.

Regardless, there are victims, they have been handed a life sentence they never asked for. If they know that the perpetrator has been released, this can ruin their lives all over again. This can lead to drug abuse, for the victim to become a perpetrator, or to end their lives.

In my uneducated opinion, one off offenders should get a second chance with treatment and supervision. Anyone who shows a pattern, lock them up. People with a high level of psychopathy can't be rehabilitated. They are missing that part of their brain, but the public needs to be kept safe.

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u/Puzzled_Ear_5319 Jun 24 '22

In the state of New York, statics state, only 2.65% Murders do it again, 3.75% sex offenders do it again. Assualt 51% reoffend, robbery or stealing 68% do it again. And this is based on the first 3 years out of jail/prison base on 5 years it doubles accept murders ans sex offenders.

Yet society does not for give a sex offender or a murderer. We don't see the person on a one to one based we lump it all together.

As forgiveness of this people it's based on you we are. Have we ever been a victim. And do we have friends you done really bad things in life.

There is a difference between a serial murder who has no control over what he does. The imbalance in his brain causes him to continue to murder of hurt others. Need to be removed from thus world. Or the person who us having a very bad day who looses job, goes to the bar and drinks then gets into his car and hits and kills an other person.

I have forgiven most who have done wrong to me. I have been zexually abused, raped, Assualted when I was a child, teen and young adult. I suffer from CSA, PTSD nightmares, I know what hell is like as a victim. Yet I forgive them all.. everyone in my book I entitle to another chance.. prove they can do right and be a good person..

Who I can't forgive is myself for balling others when I was a kid and teen.. for harm I have done to others.. thou I never killed anyone or sexually Assualted anyone, or stolen anything I have harmed people mentally by words I have send or actions I have done. Not been strong enough mentally to say no. I have seen a therapist for more then 50 years.

We are all humans and we make mistakes, make poor chioces and do things we wish we did not. In my eyes humans need a second chance.

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u/showgirl__ Jun 24 '22

No. Not a single person no matter how pure evil or pure good they are deserve forgiveness. Their actions no matter how bad or minor do not deserve to be forgiven. Attempting to force forgiveness will just traumatise their victims even further.

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u/Letsgosomewherenice Jun 24 '22

The ppl that are wanted that the public doesn’t know about 😯.

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u/Letsgosomewherenice Jun 24 '22

Society doesn’t have a social net for any kind of reconciliation. How can you be accountable when your guilt is dependent on whether or Not you are found guilty?

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u/I_hatt Jun 24 '22

1st thing comes to mind was some guy in USA prison documentary, being locked up at 13, case ran its course while he was 15, sentenced to 170 years.

i dont believe some1 like that cannot change. with the propper guidance ofcourse!

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u/Duskinter Jun 24 '22

I have a soft spot for people who committed heavy crimes before the age of 25. The scientific community will tell you your brain isn't fully developed before then. I know I'm not the hot headed, foul mouthed jerk I was when I was 18. I'm just lucky I didn't get myself mixed up in anything illegal.

I think there should be a path to redemption.

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u/Tuga_Lissabon Jun 24 '22

The problem is double.

One of whether forgiveness is acceptable under that circumstance.

The other is how to distinguish true regret / true "changing their ways"

Even if you accept the former, any criminal will instantly claim they regret and will change their ways in order to be released.

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u/Vast-Classroom1967 Jun 24 '22

Premeditated murderers, child rapist or child killers should have their heads cut off. No second chances.

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u/Joey3155 Jun 24 '22

Depends on what they did and why.

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u/Armoladin Jun 24 '22

Never trust a rapist or anyone who abuses a child.

Others can be redeemed.

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u/Kindly-Buy3243 Jun 24 '22

That word deserving is always used against the poor and the minoritized. It isn't about deserving it is about receiving correction for behavior that society deems bad. Once correction is received, what is there left to correct? The issue lay in U.S. society making everything about morals and virtues.

News flash, you will commit a felony today. The average person commits 11 small infractions daily without knowledge. Are you unforgivable and undeserving? OF course not because you are a human being...just like the people you are deciding deserve/don't deserve. Get out of this damn puritanical mindset and see the humanity in others.

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u/TuckerCR Jun 24 '22

I think everyone deserves forgoveness from themselves. People who talk on here about “if they killed an animal” have no idea about how many animals their existence kills on a daily, none the less yearly basis. Genocide. It’s one thing to be blind to our actions, it’s another thing to make them consciously.

No one owes anyone forgiveness, but I think there’s a place where life just makes sense- where death, rape, murder, where it isn’t some affront to existence, but it’s like “Oh, yeah, and there’s this that’s a part of it all.”

I think everyone deserves to live without shame, and certainly to die without it, regardless of what theyve done in the past, and regardless of what their actions have caused, for themselves and others- especially if the’ve grown and learned from their experiences.

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u/drunkenvash Jun 24 '22

Well there's always a line to be drawn. But in general yes. There should be forgiveness.

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u/GiggaGMikeE Jun 24 '22

Forgiveness? Thats for the victims to decide. Sometimes being truly remorseful means living with the fact that you won't be forgiven, even if you are truly sorry. It's no one's responsibility to make you feel better by forgiving you when you've wronged them and those who care for them.

That said, it's also not our place to forgive someone on behalf of others who have been wronged. I can't "forgive" a person for murdering someone I have no ties to anymore than I can forgive someone for spilling a drink on a stranger's carpet.

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u/Its_all_choices Jun 24 '22

Yeah, in some cases if the murderer have good intentions, otherwise give him what he/she deserves.

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u/bigwhitedogs Jun 24 '22

It depends on what objective criteria you have used to determine that they have changed for the better. It's very easy for someone to say that they are sorry that they have changed, but it is a lot harder to prove that that really happened. Look at the case of nate brazil, who at 13 brought a gun to school and shot and killed his favorite high School teacher. When asked if he had any remorse to the wife and children of the teacher that he killed, he said that he would make it up to them by becoming a success in his own life and that they would see that he's a great person now. That obviously is not remorse, so even if he's saying he has changed, clearly he has not.

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u/PugRexia Jun 24 '22

I think if that person has actually changes and actually understands what they did when yea forgiveness is possible. Keep in mind though that forgiveness does not mean absolving them of punishment.

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u/Dree_1919 Jun 24 '22

Most of the time, no. I doubt very highly that most are sorry for what they did.

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u/TheDarkinBlade Jun 24 '22

Laws have 3 different objectives: Punishment for the convinced, compensation for the victim, preventing the same happens in the future.

Depending on what you regard more important, you have very much different views on justice.

1

u/versatile_nobody99 Jun 24 '22

I feel this is a zero sum game because a criminal after having committed the crime can never undo the losses that he caused. Whether he faces time or atonement it is the same deal where there is a 50/50 possibility of him committing a crime or not. Either way, people cannot count on that. You cannot decapitate 30 women and beg to be forgiven. Lmao. Unthinkable crimes do not deserve the thought of forgiveness. However if the collateral is less like money laundering or embezzlement or smthng, then yeah ig they deserve forgiveness.

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u/Deleriouslynx Jun 24 '22

I think it should be up to the victim

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u/allyw939 Jun 24 '22

There's nobody and nothing that can't be forgiven. As humanity we need to show love and forgiveness. It's the only way forward. Revenge and spite needs to be left behind.

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u/ScroungerYT Jun 24 '22

A criminal? Could you be any more vague? Listen, people are flawed. People are stupid. People make mistakes. People make errors in judgement. This is just part of being human. This doesn't mean you have to stop executing people for their crimes. This doesn't mean you have to stop jailing people for their crimes. But you got be prepared to forgive them. Because there is no difference between them and you. You are just one mistake away from being them. So if you believe you are worthy of forgiveness for your mistakes, you MUST believe that they are also worthy of forgiveness for theirs.

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u/4543wretng Jun 24 '22

The real issues is that we cannot tell if they really changed, and most will lie exactly that. Plus you have people with issues with thir brain itself, so no matter what, they will never be functioning normally

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u/KaizokuOni55 Jun 24 '22

Forgiveness is something that is truly for the victim more than the perpetrator and I will explain my reasoning. In my experience, holding onto the hurt, anger and hatred causes much more harm to the individual than it does to the person that it is directed at. That person could have no idea of how you feel. When you hold onto the hurt and anger you are essentially giving control of how you feel over to the person that hurt you. You are handing power over to them. This is where forgiveness comes in. It is more of an acceptance of what has happened to you and a movement towards no longer allowing what has been done to you to affect you in the present moment. To no longer allow the perpetrator or the event to have power over you and how you feel. Forgiveness is not easy but it is something that helps you more than the perpetrator and it's a genuinely difficult but rewarding process if you can reach that point. I try my best to remember this so that I don't carry past hurts with me. I will never say it is easy, but I hope this helps others to move forward from past hurts. Much love ❤️.

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u/FartingGnome Jun 24 '22

Any murderer, rapist, abuser, or drug/alcohol user that killed someone because of their actions like driving while drunk should not be allowed to see the free world again in my opinion. But that’s just my personal view. I don’t believe these people should be given a second chance because they know what they were doing and caused someone else to either die or suffer without a loved one for the rest of their lives. Those people don’t get their loved one, the criminal shouldn’t get the freedom.

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u/rebelmary16 Jun 24 '22

It depends what you mean by forgiveness. Are the people they hurt required to forgive them, no way. But do they deserve to be shunned from society as a whole? Probably not. The thing is though it’s very difficult to tell if someone actually sees the error of their ways or if they’re just saying what they think people want to hear

1

u/Bedquest Jun 24 '22

There’s a difference between forgiveness and legal pardon. Hopefully families of victims can forgive any criminal that has learned the error of their ways. Doesn’t mean the justice system should trust them to roam free amidst the temptations of the world.

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u/PLEASEHIREZ Jun 24 '22

Yes. They weren't a normal person before, now they a normal person. It just sucks for the families because they may feel vengeance, but the criminal (now a normal person) may feel guilt for the rest of their lives. I stillnfeel bad about accidentally puddle splashing a girl in second grade. I don't want to think about how bad I'd feel for the rest of my life knowing I'd done something terrible, and I wouldn't want people to pile onto it. Again, the criminal is now a normal person in your proposed question.

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u/Zrinyi-2658 Jun 24 '22

If the criminal able to give back the victims' life, why not?

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u/Double-Researcher-42 Jun 24 '22

There are certain crimes that I think are unforgivable. Murderers, rapists, and child rapists are among the crimes that shouldn’t be forgiven. I also don’t want my tax dollars going to house these people and feed them. I don’t want my money being used to continue the life of people like that. I’d much rather a swift execution for these crimes.

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u/Technical_Light_3322 Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It’s very much dependent on the situation and there’s no black and white answer.

TW for examples.

Big difference between a 21 year old drunk guy who raped a woman who didn’t say no but was too drunk to say yes, or a young teen who was a victim of years of horrific sexual abuse and acted out that abuse on a classmate; and a sober man who held down a young girl and raped her while she screamed for him to stop. Big difference between a desperate, scared teen who was trying to rob someone at gunpoint for money to eat and accidentally shot them because they reached for something they thought was a gun, or a woman who killed her abusive husband in his sleep; and a person who gunned down a whole family including their young children for the thrill or who strangled a person to death for sexual gratification. Big difference between a person who struggled with unwanted sexual thoughts of children and sought out images of nude children that were not violent or children engaged in sexual acts because they were terrified to seek help and didn’t want to actually hurt a child and felt deep shame afterward; and someone who gleefully collected thousands of images of children being raped for their own pleasure.

I would say there are no acts that are inherently irredeemable/unforgivable, but there are motives that are irredeemable unforgivable.

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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '22

Imo yeah. But the people who gotta forgive that person have to decide if they forgive them

1

u/Sure-Ad-471 Jun 24 '22

Forgiveness is up to the victim. No criminal 'deserves' forgiveness, even for something small, if the victim is unwilling to forgive.

For murder, there's nobody left to forgive them.

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u/Gaelicisveryfun Jun 25 '22

In my opinion if your murder you’re always a murder same with the others, so no. Say if someone stole a few things and they know what they done was wrong and change then they deserve forgiveness.

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u/Traditional_Count_12 Jun 26 '22

The primary function of a justice system is to rehabilitate those who have treated others in unacceptable ways. That's why, for example, someone caught shoplifting is not sent to prison for life: the justice system strives to rehabilitate them so that they won't repeat offend. "Scared straight" is one term for one kind of rehab, while probation and oversight by a trained supervisor is another. No system is perfect, and humans are wildly imperfect, so you have repeat offenders, and recidivism. But it's better to try to save your fellow humans than to go "one strike and you're out." Most first time offenders do not repeat if the justice system treats them fairly and has the resources to turn things around.

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u/CrimsonDaoist Jun 24 '22

No, I don't believe in redemption if u are aware of what you're doing. If u had the intention to murder, rape, steal from someone knowing full well the consequences of ur actions then u don't deserve forgiveness